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  #46  
Old 08-13-2009, 01:08 AM
lornecherry lornecherry is offline
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I will have much to say on various track surfaces once I finish testing, but here are some more general observations from the test track surfaces so far:

EVA foam and its many formulations remains one of my favorites. Just keep it static-free by washing gently with water on occasion. Ozite carpet has mid-traction and a great "racing" feel (but don't use it for the d'nano - see below).

I have not tested plastic, but I can assure you there is a way to make almost any surface, including plastic, perform very well, given the proper tires, grain in the track, and if you like, track or tire "sauce".

For example, there is a permanent rubber 'spray' that I experimented with, with good results ... it can easily be applied to almost any less-than-ideal surface to increase traction. Another member liked Plastidip on the Realtracks surface, and I'm inclined to favour that type of traction "booster" because it is not an overly sticky dirt-magnet like sugar-water, rootbeer or tire sauce.

The only surfaces that are not suitable are those that are fiborous, so no carpet, or anything that is a static/dirt/hair magnet. (The jury is out on the high-end felt; I've had mixed results).

Just as there is no one perfect car for everyone (although a Ferrari 355 I once drove came damn close) ...there is no one perfect track surface. I'm enthusiastic about a surface one day, and "nah" the next day because humidity, temperature and minute setup changes all effect the d'nano's tires and the track surface. And unless I've driven a few hundred laps with different cars, on different days, I'm can only conclude that I can't conclude.

So a little "sauce" on your track or tires is fine -- if it's fun and it doesn't gum-up the car, then OK.

My biggest concerns with any track surface that is too sticky is: 1) traction rolls coming off the main straight and 2) wherever the "sauce" is, so too will be hair, dust and other yucky stuff -- for a 1/10th -1/18th scale car that's not going to make or break the race -- but for the d'nano I would certainly be concerned. (A track surface's ability to deal with dust and hair has been one of the biggest hurdles in trying to engineer suitable surfaces.)

With different tires finally available for d'nano, the 'type' of running surface is becomming less important - you just need to find the right combinations of "tuning" -- h'mmm ... sounds like full-scale racing. And considering that RCP, HTUSA, Realtracks, and the surfaces I'm now working with are all very different, there appears to be a variety of suitable surfaces.

Just look at tennis ... good to watch on hard-court, grass or clay, Federer and Nadal find ways to on all the different surfaces, just as Schmacher did at completely different tracks years ago.
---
I can tell you what is being worked on with respect to track development by both myself and others is convenience, scale-like appearence, and a touch of realism. I, personally do not like too much grip on a track with the d'nano, as I found out with 1.0+ COF (coefficient of friction) rubber. It's just not realistic.

The more I drive, the more I realize that the most important "traction" upgrade after the prerequisite bearings/diff/tires is a new transmitter. The steering rates and loosy-goosy feel on the Perfex TX are awful ... I'm just not comfortable with that transmitter (although my kids like it). On a grippy track or with low degree (sticky) front tires, my 360 Modena darts around like the ShamWow pitchman on crack.
---
The d'nano is a very special car; the traction coefficeints, CG, and scale speed are worlds apart from the Mini-Z. Making the car fun to drive on an ongoing basis on a smallish 14x6 track is also challenging ... the biggest uprade you can make on any track, whether that be RCP, Realtracks or homebrew ...is...more track.

In conclusion; don't go too sticky or attract dust in any way, buy more track so the d'nano can stretch its legs, upgrade the car ... and if you have a KO Propo TX that you are running with your D'nano ... please let me know if that helps your handling before I plunk down a grand for a few of those. - Lorne
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  #47  
Old 08-13-2009, 01:34 AM
run4fun run4fun is offline
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Hi Lorne,
I like the work and information you have posted. I just want to add that I only logged on here to share something I found to be "surprisingly" successful, and after reading through many posts on tracks and traction nobody mentioned it. It was only to let people know I have tried it and it works very well. If you have not tried it on Realtracks, you really should!

I think the comments on being sticky, attracting ants and attracting crap on the cars, indicates lack of experience. I don't really care if you want to try it or not. But, if you haven't tried it, don't speculate. When applied correctly, the track is dry and not tacky to feel at all. It does not attract dust and takes the same effort to apply and maintain as dusting the track with a damp cloth. I was really amazed myself at how well it worked. Otherwise, I would NEVER bother making a post to a site like this. And, I'm sorry I did. I hope nobody here tries it, because they don't deserve it. JKHFWI

JKHFWI = just kidding have fun with it!

Last edited by run4fun; 08-13-2009 at 01:37 AM.
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  #48  
Old 08-13-2009, 05:25 AM
lornecherry lornecherry is offline
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I have tried all sorts of traction additives, but not root beer or any other soft drink on plastic, per se. I will give it a try on some slot car track I have, although it's probably different plastic than your Realtracks.

I have tried sugar water (an old trick if you want to run on a concrete basement floor) and other home-brew concoctions, but never took any of that too seriously, because it is frowned upon in Mini-Z racing and all of the surfaces that I've delt with had enough traction anyway, or if they didn't, foam tires quickly solved the problem.
--
But, if your 'recipe' lasts a week (or let's say a 500+ laps) and is indeed not a sticky mess as I suspected in my earlier post -- then it's certainly worth looking at seriously; especially if Kyosho does indeed release their all-plastic track.

(Could you share the brand of root beer, since there may be variance on different soft drinks.)

Of course if this is for real as you suggest, and it gains acceptance some how, be prepared to be the brunt of some very sharp humour barbs, like:
if I use diet root beer, will I shed some excess time off my laps? How about if I split a two-four of real beer, half for me and half for my track?

And don't tell Kyosho, they will surely re-label the stuff and charge $24 a bottle.
---
Yes, I agree -- I shouldn't discount or condone it until I've tried your exact recipe. And I am guilty of my own rule of not commenting unless having had direct experience. Perhaps because I'm so paranoid of constantly cleaning front ends on these little cars and because I spent the better part of 6 hours tonight trying to cut impossible-to-cut-straight rubber for a track infield.
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  #49  
Old 08-13-2009, 06:51 AM
run4fun run4fun is offline
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"Could you share the brand of root beer, since there may be variance on different soft drinks"?

I could think you are scoffing at me, but that would be my problem and paranoia!

When I started racing RC a friend of mine mentioned that "serious" guys spray soda pop on the parking lot before racing. HA! HA! HA! I laughed at him and said yah! VERY SERIOUS GUYS hahhahaaah! I can picture them now running around the parking lot shaking a Coke and spaying out a little patch... very funny!

Then, after a while, I found myself in the garage (when my slot adapted FOAM tires on my mini-z were just not cutting it on the shiny concrete surface) spraying it down... heaven forbid. Eventually I came to appreciate those dedicated model racing addicts, running around shaking and spraying 2 liter soda bottles, early in the morning hours after setting up boards or "track rails" or whatever we called those lousy things that launched cars across the track into oncoming traffic, or... yes FIRE HOSE!

I was still laughing a bit when they told me they preferred Mug brand rootbeer, because it has more sugar. I used it because it's what they had in the lobby of the hotel. I doubt it matters much, but I'll keep using it anyway.LOL.
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  #50  
Old 08-13-2009, 10:36 AM
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the "whiskey" comment was in jest... relax bro, it IS just a web forum. glad all your home remedies work for ya. enjoy your dnano.... thats what its all about
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  #51  
Old 08-15-2009, 12:04 PM
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Tire Test

I have not been able to dedicate any time to RC for the past few months but I did want to post some initial test results of Atomic, PN, and Kyosho tires with RealTracks. Thanks Lorne for taking it down a notch and bringing the thread back into focus. The reason we go to any forum is for an open exchange of ideas and experiences. Forums can assist us in making an informed decision on a course of action that is appropriate for our interest or desired end state. Because of that it is important we all try and base our opinions on our experiences, just as runforfun did.

1) He found RealTracks did not have enough traction for him
2) He tried a technique to improve traction
3) His technique was successful for him
4) He shared it with others on the forum.

Marco expressed valid concerns about pest control and shared his previous experience with suger-water. Lornes informative and detailed post speak for themselves. I will be adding tire manufacturer and compound results to it as well. I feel one of the reasons we don’t hear from a larger cross section of people is because a new poster is reluctant to share something different because they probably do not want to deal with a post that deteriorates into something it should not be.
Thank you for posting runforfun.

O.K. I am stepping off my soap box.

To start, RealTracks and the dNaNo tires must be kept clean. Any amount off dust or debris on the tires will significantly affect performance. A damp cloth is all that is required to wipe Down RealTracks. A lightly moistened paper towel or cloth placed flat on a hard surface works well to clean the tires. If you are running FlatTracks it is important to keep your runoff area clean as well. We now use roll up plastic grass looking indoor outdoor carpet and it works great. It has no fibers, does not hold dust on the surface, and you pay a bigger penalty in speed when you go off the track. The stock front dNaNo tires are very hard, usually a 50. They help tame a twitchy low mass car. While the stock tires perform well on a small tight course http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDVUqyGsq-Y
,at higher speeds they will under steer on RealTracks when they get dusty. I have tested almost every tire combination of PN, Atomic, and Kyosho with the expected positive results. All of the basic principles apply to making the car handle neutral or slight under steer if you prefer. There is nothing new here. Every car will take a slightly different combo. PN racing offers the widest range of performance to dial in your car on RealTracks. Kyosho does not go soft enough on the front (50, 60) So they will under steer, Atomic does not go hard enough on the front,(25,35) so they will always over steer, even with the softest (08) on the rear. PN has the best offering with (45,55,65) on the fronts and (08,15,20) on the rear. With the Mazda 727 and Porsche 962 a PN 65 front and 08 rear is a good starting place. The car is almost neutral. Under rapid deceleration entering a corning it will slightly over steer with slight rear wheel hop. When accelerating out of corner it will slightly under steer, providing you do not break traction with to much throttle. The PN and atomic tires appear to have a similar more sticky composition as compared to the less sticky Kyoshos. I thought these sticky tires would be more susceptible to dust, but as it turned out after I intentionally got them dusty the performance was only marginally affected. The PN’s are similar to the kyosho with regard to thickness from wheel to the road surface as compared to the flatter and thinner Atomics. Be sure to wear your glasses when you put the PN's on the rim. I did not initially notice the relief cut in the inside of one edge of the PN tires that allows the tire to slide over the raised inner portion of the rim. They fit very nicely when properly installed. I will take some videos of some track times and skid pad testing in the future.

In conclusion while treating a track surface is certainly a viable alterative, I have confirmed what many have said. With alternate tire compunds coupled with a clean track you will be able to achieve proper performance. With the availabilty of a wider range of tires any high speed traction issue of the hard factory front tires and the RealTracks surface is mitigated.

Thanks
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Last edited by RealTracks; 08-15-2009 at 01:49 PM.
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  #52  
Old 08-15-2009, 02:57 PM
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very well put sir
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  #53  
Old 11-13-2009, 07:46 AM
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in my search for sustainable flooring products i came across the following; http://www.expanko.com/REZTEC/products-REZ-Custom.html

this feels very similar to regupol but it seems to be much more customizable in terms of color and tile pattern. it may be worth looking into. you may even be able to replicate rcp like tile patterns. comes in rolls too.
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  #54  
Old 11-13-2009, 03:41 PM
lornecherry lornecherry is offline
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suitability of "flooring" products

I've been inactive on the forums for a while, as I've been tied up day and night with a work project (nothing to do with R/C unfortunately). Almost done though, so I'll be spending more time on the tracks/surfaces come December.

To comment on the flooring products ...yes "Gym" flooring and the colored surfaces Arch has suggested have great traction and are made from rubber similar to Regupol ... the main downside is portability ...or lack of it.

The "Expanko' surface has a weight of 1.2 lbs sq. ft. ...so a 10' x 10' track would weigh 120 lbs without any rails! Try schelping something like that to your friend's house for a Saturday night race.

Unless you've got room for a permanent track, materials need to be about half a pound per sq. ft. to make them "roll 'n go" over one shoulder. If you are looking for a permanent solution, then yes, this or any of the gym flooring companies all make durable, high traction surfaces that are perfect for our applications.

The key aspect when evaluating this type of flooring is to look at the thickness; 2mm is ideal ...just thick enough to maintain an even surface over the imperfections of an uneven surface (tile floor, thick carpet, etc.). Foam type materials can/should be a lot thicker ... but aim for .3 lbs per sq. foot density or less if you want to be able to handle your track easily, or use it on a raised surface such as a Ping Pong table. - Lorne
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  #55  
Old 11-14-2009, 12:26 AM
lornecherry lornecherry is offline
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...back "on thread" and following up my last comments ... you'll notice that any of the successful commercial tracks (including the RealTracks) offer a degree of portability and simplicity in setup that DIY projects have a difficult time approaching. That portability is key to the products success, as few of us have the space for a permanent track. That said, each commerical track designer strives to get closer to providng both realism and portability ...at a market-acceptable price. Not so easy of a task, especially given the high performance of the D'nano.
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  #56  
Old 11-14-2009, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arch2b View Post
in my search for sustainable flooring products i came across the following; http://www.expanko.com/REZTEC/products-REZ-Custom.html

this feels very similar to regupol but it seems to be much more customizable in terms of color and tile pattern. it may be worth looking into. you may even be able to replicate rcp like tile patterns. comes in rolls too.
Hey Arch,
That is an interesting material. I would not see a reason to try and replicate RCP tiles, They already have a fine product. RealTracks is designed to offer a completely different driving experience than RCP, not better, just different. Lorne is the man for the soft roll up surfaces. As we all know, he has been working hard at it for a long time and I look forward to his commercial product. It will give the small scale RC enthusiast (3) three unique and distinct track options, A porta-trax roll up, RCP interlocking mat, and RealTracks hard surfaced. With the new PN tire choices dNaNo traction is no longer an issue. I have 3500 lbs of new track material coming in with a slightly different texture and 30% lighter weight. Traction is consistent with the previous texture, however it provides a more uniform appearance when the light reflects off the track at certain angles. I am looking at different infield material options and I will give the products you linked a look, especially if they come in a rough surface. Thanks for the input.
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  #57  
Old 11-14-2009, 10:28 PM
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i'm not suggesting that you or anyone necessarily replicate rcp products, just that the rubber surface seems like a good fit for racing and there are 2 options really. a roll out surface and or tiles. the rubber already comes in 2 tiles sizes and apparently you can have custom tiles cut.
just saying that rubber tile track would be very interesting.

i've followed lornes tracks sine the bit charg days i've never had or raced on a roll up track so i really just can't comment on them to much other than subjective opinion. 95% of my track experience has been on tiles of various materials.

i only mentioned tiles in particular since atomic has made foam and carpet tiles (same pattern as rcp) which are being used in hong kong. carpet rcp tiles also peaks my interest. i've repeatedly asked for opinions and reviews of the carpet tile track however there is a bit of an issue on mzr regarding the matter which i would prefer not spread to here. suffice to say, i'm still waiting for a reply to my requests for information only.

i like options
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  #58  
Old 11-15-2009, 12:11 AM
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I agree, more options = more interest. I weighed, and replied to your post in the context of this threads subject. I did not mean to imply that you were suggesting copying RCP’s product. A few years ago I bonded connecters similar to the current RealTracks connectors to thin, but heavy rubber mats that were used as tool drawer liners. The connections between the mats were almost seamless, but the Epochs traction rolled on that particular material. They are now tool drawer liners again. I can only guess, but I would think the dnaNos would perorm very well on that type of material. What I really like about thin rubber is how flat it lies toward the edge of the material as compared to thin EVA.
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  #59  
Old 11-15-2009, 10:01 AM
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understood, just wanted to make sure everyone reading understood as well
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  #60  
Old 11-15-2009, 02:00 PM
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Hey Arch,
Off topic, Were you able to view the rendering of your BBS wheel I e-mailed.
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