dNaNo Online Racing?

MrNanoTrax · #1 06-15-2009, 09:24 AM

so.... what exactly is the point of cutting a deal with HTUSA, dropping a track for their online racing, then dropping a totally different version for online racing at home? just speculation... throwing this out there for discussion. is it like a plan to expand interest at home for people who don't have an HTUSA anywhere close to them? or is it more of a thing like online gaming? any thoughts?

arch2b · #2 06-15-2009, 12:40 PM

i see it this way;
htusa gets a kyohso (HFAY) online series based on the official tracks they are using where costs are controlled and money generated for the hobby shop.

everyone else gets at home capability. has it been made clear the home system includes the online features? if it does, it assume individuals will be able to purchase the same tracks or maybe offer a new set of tracks for individuals.

if not, no big deal. left to our own devices with mini-z's, we created HFAY and it's already being planned for expansion to include dnano scale. provided the sale of these continues to grow, i am willing to bet the number of home grown clubs will outnumber htusa locations thus club online series will be larger than the kyosho online series.

lornecherry · #3 06-15-2009, 02:56 PM

Besides the obvious slow roll-out, there are other inherent problems with the Kysoho on-line program.

I am doing extensive testing of track surfaces and setup combination (including working with an industrial chemist) to find a suitable roll-up surface for these cars. (More on that later). These cars are more "hard core" than I originally thought - it's taken every ounce of my Mini-Z setup and maintenance knowledge to make my stable of three d'Nanos drive as intended. The little things are dust magnets that play havoc with my pet-infested house ... I've gone so far as installing a better class of furnace filter and cleaning the test tracks daily. The d'Nano's needs sticky tires ...and sticky tires that close to the ground are a nightmare ...even on "clean" EVA.

What I have found in my testing, is that the original HTUSA tracks were far, far too small -- to the point of being no fun at all, the dNano needs almost as much length as the Z to reach full speed; it is the lane width that can be smaller with the dNano. Any track smaller than 12' in length is not very good at all, and at 12', only a banked oval seems to work well.

Ideal track size appears to 16'-20'+ with an 8'-10' foot width if you want a road course and lap times that are more than a few seconds. Seeing posts of 2.4 second lap times for a track just doesn't cut it - that's way too short.

My point? Unless the HTUSA stores are willing to dedicate a much larger space than for that of the previous tracks (and larger still than the new track shown at the Japan Hobby Show), this style of racing will go nowhere fast -- pun intended -- especially, since many clubs already have an extensive investment in RCP or similar Z tracks, or at the very least, they have the space to build something more substantial (and fun) than the HTUSA layouts.

I just don't understand the logic of using expensive retail space for serious racing, unless only a little space is needed ...and in this scenario, the track design is critical to making the dNano successful. (Unlike Mini-Z and/or Overland/Monster, the dNano cannot function at all without a track, since its front wheels will capture even the most minute amount of dust. (This is a design flaw that I'm working on a fix for) ...and the car will not run on carpet, unless you enjoy cleaning out fibers every 15 minutes.

So the track is everything.

I have yet to try, or even see, Kyosho's new track surface, and perhaps I'm wrong, but this is a class of racing that needs to move over to the clubs and out of retail if it is to survive. Given that a reasonable car with ball diff, upgraded tires and bearings cost just south of $400, this is hardly an "impulse" buy, especially in this stagnant economy -- but I can see many 1/8th-1/10th scale racers getting into this class if the many local clubs setup a competitive track that's interesting (i.e. multi-level, challenging, and where the lap time is not 2.4 seconds).

I will say that the new Kyosho track better be damn good, reasonably priced, and easy to deploy if this has any hope of catching on. If it's anything less, then Kyosho is somewhat forcing competitive racers to buy their track anyway, if those racers want to practice on the same layout that will run on the Internet competitions. To me, this is like Microsoft telling you that you can't use Windows without IE - and I don't really like being force fed, partly because I just don't, and because I know there are better solutions coming.

MrNanoTrax · #4 06-15-2009, 08:02 PM

i TOTALLY second your track requirement & size analysis. our smallest track had ~6 sec. fastest lap & largest is around ~9 sec. fast lap (stock). anything less isn't even worth counting laptimes IMO. once people start playing with these on the floor, they'll be relegated to toys so... that HAS TO be prevented. i doubt highly anyone is looking to 400USD on the floor for fun anyhow

lnfjn · #5 07-15-2009, 02:23 AM

I initially thought it was pretty neat that I could buy a Dnano and then immediately start racing the car around the track while it recorded my lap times. It was even more of a kick that I could go online later and actually see my recorded laps. The downside is the Dnano online sites has problems that will screw up a relatively good idea. The fastest times are all screwed up with lap times that are probably glitches. There should probably be something in the software that will negate any lap time that is unreasonable. There is a problem with the track in that you can take short cuts and end up with a lower lap time. I found this out when trying to drive around the track my car jump the rail and I ended up with a lower beep indicating my best lap time. This will be problem when listing the fastest drivers when you can easily cheat it.
The global and local rankings are flipped. It also doesn't look very good if the global rankings show so little tracks around the world.

pedrocamp · #6 07-15-2009, 12:21 PM

Humans being humans I don't think we will ever see a completly honest "Fastest Lap" list. Maybe the system should rank according to mean lap times, all your laps with the fastest and slowest kicked out according to a set percent and an average of the rest. It would take a bit of work to keep waving your car over the timing loop with your hand, and a bit more boring than just running your car. Consistency is what matters in racing anyway, especially small scale racing.

arch2b · #7 07-15-2009, 02:40 PM

or, times are reviewed prior to uploading so that race directors can edit laps as needed, if for example, someone jumps a rail and ran half the track for a lap.

jdob · #8 07-15-2009, 05:55 PM

I sent an e-mail to Kyosho America and asked what is up with all of the bogus lap times being listed as the top 25 fastest...??? I imagine this is something that they didn't think of during the whole process or have yet to correct??? I have not gotten any response back yet - If I hear anything I will share it here...

lnfjn · #9 07-17-2009, 01:25 AM

On the Dnano site it lists the busiest tranks in the world. I'm begining to wonder if these Dnanos are going to make it. The busiest track is in my neighborhood Corona (about 45 mnutes away) but the majority of the laps is done by the two people that work the store. With all the talk that Dnanos are so popular in Japan, there seems to be very little activity. Your track Nanotrax which I would give my first born to visit (I can say that since my oldest is adopted) also doesn't have any activity. Is this because they are not hooked up? I was under the impression that the Dnanos were very popular in the Orient (primarly Japan). Is there a group of tracks not included?

MrNanoTrax · #10 07-17-2009, 12:25 PM

NanoTrax is not a Kyosho property nor do we have a contract with Kyosho. we don't have they're "online" software or tracks and we don't plan to participate in their online racing since carpet tracks aren't in our plan. i personally designed and built our tracks for our shop and know nothing about theirs so... it wouldn't make sense for us to be online with their tracks. dnano is still relatively new being released to markets outside of japan late 2008 and availability just coming to fruition within the past 2-3 months. one can't judge success or failure in such a short period of time.

many tracks aren't verified and will NEVER be verified cuz they don't have the connectivity, software or authorized tracks for online racing. personally, i think dnano will be similar to mini-z in that club racing will fuel the fires for bigger events. we're still building a club and certainly don't expect to have big events or regular racing in the initial year. time, patience, good marketing & product support... with that, dnano isn't going anywhere

lnfjn · #11 07-17-2009, 04:28 PM

I figured that was the case. Do get me wrong I'm not a pessimist about Dnanos but it seems Kyosho is shooting themselves in the foot for lack of attention to details.

There are a couple of problems with their Racednano.com web site.
1) is the erroneous lap times being recorded
2) under locations they listed I believe your track and a number of tracks in Japan that have no activity in the last 30 days. The problem with this is it gives you the impression that this is the total global activity for Dnanos.

I believe this web site is important for the future of the Dnanos in the US since Kyosho has made this exclusive arrangement with Hobbytown. The reality is these small carpet tracks will only be good if someone can race their cars and compare themselves with others on the online site. But the online data needs to be legit or it's credability is lost. Once this happens it'a very difficult to established it again. As far as I can see this is the only value of these tracks since they too small to have actual races. Even worst I don't think the stores want a bunch of racers, since they will have to dedicate a lot more room for this to be effective.

arch2b · #12 07-17-2009, 04:48 PM

as nanotrax has expressed and i have as well in the past, i do not focus much of my attention to the kyosho dnano racing website. nor do i feel it's pivotal to it's success.

i feel the club level racing will far outshine any store series. again, i point to HFAY as an example. this was born out of club racing, happens at the club level and has the race direction needed to review submitted times to ensure legitimate ranking. i've been told the HFAY owner is in discussion regarding a dnano based online series. i honestly look forward to that much more than the kyosho system as it currently stands.

i also have hope the kyosho online system will expand as soon as the tracks become commercially available. the timing system is already being sold, although we do not know what level of interaction the 'home' systems have with the online website? it appears none which is unfortunate.

i agree in that it is simply too soon to make any projections as to the success of dnano. i think we will have a much better picture of the real situation by this time next year. hopefully by then the htusa exclusivity sales contract has expired.

pedrocamp · #13 07-17-2009, 07:28 PM

I would support a HFAY based dNaNo series, it lends itself well to home and small club tracks. While I wish the Hobbytown program well, I don't think the dNaNo will really catch on till the exclusivity deal runs out... as you do arch. The fact that so many Hobbytowns have opted out doesn't help and right now there is no way for other interested shops to get some racing going in the US since they can't sell the cars or parts, as Nonotrax does.
Will the HFAY be an RCP based track or are other options being considered?

jdob · #14 07-19-2009, 10:26 PM

I played with the timing loop a little bit today while at the track...I ran my car through the timing loop with my hand and then attempted to run it over again quickly and got a NO beep maybe three times until it would count it again - so it seems there is something in the software that will only count the same car within an alloted time??? But if you simply park your car on top of the timing loop and just let it sit there it will count off 0.80 over and over again until you move it - so that is why the majority of the top 25 fastest times on the www.racednano.com website are all 0.80's...definately a glitch that needs to be resolved if any of the timing on the official Kyosho web-site is going to have any credibility...??? It's all still in its infancy - so hopefully things will get straightened out as it really gets rolling...

MrNanoTrax · #15 07-20-2009, 01:28 AM

there is a setting in the software that allows one to set lap count span... i always set mine to 1.5-2.5 seconds less than a realistic lap time (F1R = 7.5 seconds, F2L = 4.5 seconds). cheating attempts are normally thwarted this way but for official racing events a marshal should be present anyhow.