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Repugol Tracks
we had begun a good discussion on Repugol tracks which i would like to see continued here.
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repost of reply from Mugler
what about using this surface from the post below. Interesting rubber material with what seems mad grip from the racing videos.
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repost of reply from -J-
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This surface always comes up when a discussion is started about which track surface to run. I'm interested to see what RCP has to say about it. |
repost of reply from Mugler
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The simple way of thinking about it would be to have some sort of a modular rail system designed for this surface, I mean just like the carpet surface . I'm thinking some RCP foam rails with some used D sized batteries in the pin holes to weight the tracks down in and keep in place would be the fast solution but a super narrow and slick material like the worm rail system would be ideal if possible to pull off. On carpet there's the velcro securing system, not sure if that would work for this surface too, until RCP chimes in. Interesting that Kyosho didn't go with this surface. |
repost of reply from myself
i don't see why kyosho would even consider a general building construction product mostly used (and only in a few places) for rc in the EU? are there tracks in asian using this?
i doubt they even considered it. i imagine you could use some tiny rail pins like finish nails, if the rubber is self healing. then it's just like landscaping trim with pegs. |
repost of reply from Mugler
Peg's are a possibility. Another would be tracks like the Kyosho barriers with rubberized bottoms so rubber on rubber would keep the barrier from moving. Yet another system would be a micro version of the CRC's click track and that would work on all surfaces like painted garage floors, super smooth asphalt etc.
With Kyosho I meant I thought they would have scoped for surfaces all over the world & maybe they did and still settled on the carpet. But in the videos the quality of the drive on this surface looks dead on. Closest to the level of 24th scale slot car action I've ever seen the MZs at. |
Just to add to this thread ... I will be extensively testing about 5-10 different surfaces (especially grades of Ozite and smooth racing carpets) in order to find what works best, and with what tire combinations.
With the dNano, we have a very promising car that is way over its scale MPH in relationship of its scale size; thus special attention needs to be given to the running surface, CG/weight distribution and tires. As I have some money tied up in this project, you can be assured that I want to get it right; my main goal is to find a roll-up surface that works well for our in-school racing leagues, for which the dNano is perfectly sized. 15-20 minute setup/tear-down (max) is the main design goal, with a forgiving surface that grips well. I expect this project to take the better part of June. I'm also going to do some work with foam tires on less grippy surfaces to see how the dNaNo performs; I think foam is overlooked and will solve many of the grip problems cited in earlier threads. Banked corners will also help on less grippy surfaces and adds an additional speed/skill/realism element to a small track. And if I have time, drifting, although my driving skills may not be up to that, and I would need someone to retro-fit a small heli gyro between the receiver and steering servo. Mugler, I do have a question about the Repugol ...can it roll up and then lie perfectly flat? (the website seemed to indicate that it did come in rolls, but that may mean that it wont lie flat unless glued or nailed. If not, it's not really worth testing, as the main drawing point of a well-designed dNaNo track is convenience. If so, then I'll test some of that too: in theory (which rarely leads to what works) it seems like a smooth, grippy and thin surface, with one small advantage over foam in that it (may) have flatter seams. Stay tuned for more of my findings as I progress in the testing. - Lorne |
there are some very good threads on this material on mini-zracer
HERE HERE a brief snipit... Quote:
be mild with the banking. my dnano didn't respond well to compound curved surfaces. i believe it's caused by the limited suspension travel due to scale size. it did well on a flat banked turn but anything that had rise and fall around a turn caused it to behave unpredictably. it's much better in training mode but even full speed with the stock motor is actually VERY fast for a car this small. i really don't see the need for faster motors unless your racing on a full size mini-z track with ample space. the american website has completely changed since i last looked. years ago it was building supplies, now it's activity flooring. to my knowledge, the eu guys were using the roofing material which is sold in rolls. |
1 Attachment(s)
from a supplier website...
http://www.stylepark.com/db-images/c..._336_336-1.jpg 01 Material Profile material description The most versatile product to protect membranes and insulation. Made of PUR-bonded rubber granules and fibres. Meets the requirements of DIN 18195, part 10. In comparison with protective screed, concrete, brickwork etc. Regupol 6510 has clear technical, physical and financial advantages. It is easy to install and can be optimally bonded to any kind of subbase by means of hot bitumen, special adhesives and plastic adhesives. Elasticity The material adapts to any uneven subbase, eliminating the need for any complicated cutting. Corrosion resistance Regupol® causes no build up of static electricity, chemical reactions between metals are prevented. Resistance to corrosive agents Regupol® is almost completely resistant to contaminated water or other agents in soil and air. Resistance to chemicals Regupol® is highly resistant to acidic and alkaline solutions. Resistance to micro-organisms Regupol® is fully resistant to termites, insects, microbes and fungus. Taint free Regupol® can safely be used for drinking water containers, refrigeration chambers, food storage rooms etc. as it is physiologically harmless, odourless and contains no health-damaging substances. Anti-ageing Regupol®’s resistance to decay is extraordinary. It maintains its elasticity and all other properties for an almost unlimited period. 02 Technical Data technical description Dimension: Sheets: 2300 x 1150 mm Rolls: width 1250 mm Thicknesses 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 20 mm, other thicknesses upon request 03 Material Properties form form foil optics/haptics appearance high gloss, opaque colour black haptics rough, soft light transmission no transmission properties classification by standart: DIN DIN 14501, DIN 18195, DIN 4102 B2, DIN 52123, DIN 53571, DIN 53577, DIN 9000 classification by standart: EN EN 14001, EN 9000 classification by standart: ISO ISO 14001, ISO 9000 material type plastic PUR polyurtheane 04 Dimensions (available Sizes) Dimensions (available Sizes) Width 1150 - 1250 mm Height (thickness) 6 - 20 mm Length 2300 mm 05 Weight Weight Weight per cm³ 0,73 g/cm³ 06 Tags PUR-bonded rubber granules, membranes, PUR foam, production of floor coverings, Corrosion resistance, fibres, numerous colours, colour combinations, construction industry, BSW, recycable, Recoflex, impact loads, impact sound absorbing, packaging, anti-slip characteristics, Elasic floor covering, furniture production, comfortable cushioning effect, Everroll Endurance, substitute for cork, sports industry, Anti-ageing, particle boards, insulation, point loads, PUR bound rubber granules, brickwork, resistant to mechanical, non-light reflecting, concrete, anti fatigue, rounded surfaces, protective screed, Regupol Resist, Elastic Particle Board, shipping industry, wear resistant, selected raw materials, Elasticity |
Not to digress but
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arch, yes banking is a gentle art. Too much bank wont work with rear-drive cars (AWD is a bit better). I had so-so success with EVA tiles because of their thickness and inability to get a true parabolic shape (without building a frame underneath). I kept it at only about 10 degrees max.
Carpet was a bit easier to work with, although not always wrinkle-free, no matter how tight I had the rails pull the sides. 15 degrees or so was more than enough and even 7 or 8 degrees really helped. The essential corner to bank was the fast corner off the main straight. I do remember that the Mini-Z monster trucks were a lot of fun with a banked corner on the track before the obstacles. I contacted the Canadian distributor for Repugol, I'll try and get down to see it in person and order a roll or two. |
lornecherry
I've never run on Repugol nor seen it up close but wanted to drive the subject to the forefront for exploration by people just like yourself. This was based on a couple of discussions and videos which I came across on Mini Z racer. Looks like arch has amassed more technical info than the Repugol headquarters in Europe right here:-) As far as the ultimate quick set up track, I would like to see soft fabric bottomed boards of approximately 6' x 4' (or the largest dimension that can be stored under a queen sized bed) with the material of choice (say Repugol) on the racing side already permanently installed. The sections can line up side by side via pegs in holes and the side locking latches will finish holding everything secure together. For the barriers I would like to see a micro version of the CRC's click track with rubberized bottom to prevent it from moving. I think that combo would make for quick set up and dis assembly of a quality racing track and can be as large as you would want it, with variable layouts etc. I have a feeling any material that is going to be rolled will eventually exhibit bumps and the dnano being so tiny will not love that. PS - arch2b thanks for creating the thread. |
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There's a "new" track surface that's been popping up that might work VERY well for this purpose... Kyosho's Route 241 raceway uses it, and I think it's the same stuff that's used on all of the HTUSA tracks... and it's also what's used at the Underground Mini-z speedway in Korea (see video below), and THOSE cars look HOOKED up...
It's called Pytex carpet... it's the same stuff that is used in convention booths. The fibers don't com out and foul the drivetrains of the dnanos, it's smooth and has a very scale driving feel for Z's and 'nanos, you can AWD drift on it w/o flipping it over like RCP tracks, and I swear after running my dnano on it at 241, my car came off cleaner than it went on... Someone (John at RCP... LOL) should look into it....it might be a viable option for Mini-Z and dNano alike High grip Mod race: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-RAS2W6dHE Dnano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdUwukbaRCU Drift: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cPcJMC0uLw All on the same surface.... |
that is not the prevailing opinion expressed by those running at hobby town tracks. they often complain of the mess and need to constantly clean out the wheels.
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interesting... well the track at Route 241 works great... and I had no issues wth fibers, dirt, or any other misc. stuff getting into my car,,, and there was a guy drifting a Honda Odyssey van, and has wasn't complaining about residue... dono
still a good option versus some of the other carpets out there... and looking at the Underground videos, the grip levels have the potential to be amazing... |
Awesome Track!
That would be great Nano track to have at home in the basement, I like it! Thanks for sharing.
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...any fiberous surface is simply a no-go for the d'NaNo. I did far more testing then Kyosho and I can assure you that you cannot use a running surface with fibers. Not on the track, not on the run-off area, not anywhere around these cars. I've seen cars get fouled from simply running off the track for a few inches and into a barrier run-off made of felt.
Noth'in, nada, nope ...I tested anything from specially-made "Mini-Z Ozite" to micro-fibered trade show carpet (probably very similar to Pytex but I can't be sure). I even tried the very best industrial felts that have the most compacted fibers. And I tried coating the fibers with chemicals to keep them from shedding and tried even a few industrial treatments recommended by an Ozite chemist. Everytime I thought I had the problem solved, the wheels would eventually foul up. As the former Ozite racing carpet distributor for Canada, I had a vested interest in making a carpet track for the D'NaNO work, but there's something about the front-end of the cars or how close they are to the ground that attracts fibers like a flies to pile of %&#!. Yes, I able to get some cars run about 15 minutes before one wheel fouled, but if you've ever cleaned the front end on these cars, you know what a pain in the asz it is ... because of the low-mass wheels; one single fiber or hair wrapped around the front axel will tweak the car's handling. John's RCP, the Realtracks surface, or the stuff I make my custom tracks from are not fiberous at all and there's a good reason for that... it's far easier to care for these non-fiberous surfaces and the cars; just keep your track static-free and use a dry (graphite) lubricant on the fron end. I only wish this were not ture, since we had $99 roll-up carpet track ready to go that was perfect in terms of traction and convenience. Moreover, John from RCP and I had a few long discussions to try and get a carpet-type surface to work; I don't give up easily, but I just couldn't sell or use any fiberous track and be honest about it. Kysoho could easily redesign the front end to keep the fibers out of the axle area or at least make it a 10 second clean-out like it is on the rear wheels. (I consider the current front-end a design flaw with the cars.) Fixing this one problem would do a lot to help this class of cars, not to mention that the Hobbytown tracks would actually be useful ...and think of how many tracks could quickly be setup if clubs could use their exisiting Ozite that they run larger cars on. If you have a link to Pytex carpet (I think it is made in China) or you know where I can find a sample I will have a serious look at it; (I can't find it in Canada) ...but my gut feeling is if its got fibers, stay far far away. If I can save a few hobbyists the grief of going through all the carpet/felt/whatever testing I did then this rant has been worth it. Kyosho, please, please fix the front end. |
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and can we have more info? |
I hate when good discussions die out with no resolution....
anything? |
i'd like to know as well. it has some good potential and apparently serves well in european clubs.
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I've had some interaction with the American distributor (actually new owner) of the Regupol product. They sent me a small sample but were very unprofessional in answering either emails or phone calls after that. I also tested another Canadian-made masticated rubber that is almost the same. Here's what I found:
The Good: 1) Smooth, recycled rubber with outstanding traction, BUT... (read below). 2) Relatively inexpensive. 3) Lies flat on most floors without effort (i.e. doesn't "wrinkle" like most thin racing carpets.) It rolls up! 4) It's recylced material 5) Low maintanence, almost indestructible. The Bad: 1) The company is not-so-easy to deal with (even when I wanted to order a fair bit of the stuff.) Shipping is very expensive. 2) It's frigg'in heavy (even in 2MM, the thinest formulation, it weighs almost twice as much per sq. ft. as an RCP tiles. This OK for a small track up to 10' x6 ' or so, but not so good on a larger track. That's why we see it in Europe as part of permanent installations. 3) There is far too much traction for the d'NaNo. I know that sounds hard to believe, but axle hop on the d'NaNo is a problem on surfaces with a high friction coefficient. (I used the plasticky auto-scale tires on rubber and that worked OK.) You get traction rolls, even with the highest degree (least grippy) rubber tires. Rubber-to-rubber is not a good combo unless you are drag racing in a straight line. The problem is further exacerbated by the d'NaNo's very high speed (for its scale) and the so-so performance of a such a small differential. 3) Hard to match seams. Ever try cutting rubber straight to match a seam? It stretches as you cut it. You can do it reasonably well by overlaying it. But according to one distributor of the stuff I tested, it needs to cut with an industrial water jet cutter to get it accurate. This is a problem if you want to match the edges on the rolls, as the max width is 4-foot roll ... d'NaNo's don't like gaps in the seams. 4) You'll need to design a rail system. Since you can't injection mold the edges or anything like that, you'll need a rail system that attaches and then is removable to make different configurations. Bottom Line: It's great for larger Mini-Z's in a permanent track location ...I can see that. But it would take a fair bit of development to make it work for the d'NaNo, not to mention that shipping costs are high due to the weight. That said, I may get some of the lowest friction coefficient I can find later this summer to do some more testing. Maybe I can solve some of the problems. - Lorne |
as usual, your research and feedback is invaluable :)
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I think I've found another surface.. it's acoustic underlayment for tile... one is cork, which is very grippy but not overly so... and the other is rubberized an looks and behaves just like asphalt...
the cork one (VC300) comes on 39-inch x 62-foot rolls... and the rubber one (Cerazorb Green) comes in 48-inch x 30-foot rolls and you could easily make an 8-foot x 15-foot racing surface that's just like asphalt by cutting the roll in half and laying the halves next to each other... and maybe the halves can be connected or bonded to each other to create a rollable surface... http://www.vc300.com/ http://www.vc300.com/images/vc300-closeup.jpg http://www.cerazorbgreen.com/ http://www.cerazorbgreen.com/images/...eenproduct.jpg http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/6205/imagetgz.jpg http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8982/imagehl.jpg http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3120/imageci.jpg |
I truly appreciate your diligence and that you have perhaps stumbled upon something with promise.
The cork surface is similar to a cork-rubber surfaced also manufactured by the Regupol people. I rejected it because it looked really, really uggggly and was quite expensive per sq yd. You could paint it, but that would ruin the traction or at the very least, be impractical. The other stuff (Cerazorb) does look interesting. It's a little on the heavy side, but not nearly so heavy as 3mm rubber. And from my testing of rubber, 3mm is the ideal thickness (2mm holds the contour of the surface underneath too much, i.e. tile joints and thus lies uneven, 4mm is too heavy) There are three criteria it must pass to be better then what I'm using now (said smuggly after searching a year for the best surface :) 1) It must deploy flat when continually unrolled/rerolled/unrolled (some rubber does, but lighter/intermixed stuff tends not to). This is a biggie for a convenient, roll-up portable track. 2) It must not have too much traction so as to cause traction rolling with the cars or excessive rear-end shudder (without a fancy, scmancy damper). A stock d'NaNo must be able to run on it well without excessive tunning, with the exception of the correct tire matching. 3) It must be reasonably easy to cut or shape with hand tools. (it's difficult to make a true, straight cut on 3mm rubber) It is already the right color, thickness and width (although 6ft wide would be better) —a good starting point a worth testing. The lighter weight (when comapred to rubber) also suggests that it might be easier to work with. I'm going to contact the manufacturer and see if I can get some sent up here. Ya' never know, it just might be good. Now if you can only attract another 5,000 people to the d'Nano class, I might be able to explain to the company President (my wife) that there really is a market for these tracks ... |
Oh ****z, I just realized I totally hijacked John's RCP thread ...Arch, perhaps you could move these last few posts under the Regupol thread or somewhere else.
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done :)
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Too sticky maybe?.... LOL
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2207/imagelxw.jpg 40° fronts and 10° rears |
I spoke with the rep for Cerazorb today; they no longer make a roll-up product, but the new sheet form underlay sounded quite interesting (non-curl, light, reasonably priced). It's a polypropolyne mix (which is similar to the Porta-Trax material I'm using now), so it just might work well.
I've ordered some and it will come in about 20 days ...I'll post once I test it. |
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BTW... found some other stuff too.. it helps that we're an interior design firm.. we get to see all this cool stuff.. Atmosphere Recycled Rubber Flooring... it comes in tiles, rolls, and puzzle pieces (interlocks) http://www.tomkt.com/installation/at...nt_pop4_01.jpg http://www.tomkt.com/installation/at...tall_int.html# |
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