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actofgod
01-02-2003, 08:40 PM
If you can swap a battery, you can dual-cell mod your bit!

This mod is for all the people who don't like the idea of using a dremel on their bit to do a dual cell mod. This is the easiest dual cell mod you can do since it fits in the original battery space without modification or soldering required.

Other advantages include the fact that it does not adversely affect your weight distribution. Your car will not flip over, spin out, or wheelie because of extra battery weight; in fact it weighs less than the stock battery which is great for those interested in trimming off extra weight to increase speed and acceleration.

The one disadvantage is that the capacity is only 40mAh, less than the stock NiCd's 50mAh and much less than the 150mAh NIMH replacements. *BUT* if you've been following the Peak Charg'd (http://tinyrc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3458) thread over in the Bit Science discussion area, you know that even the stock NiCd is not charged fully with the rapid charge method. A fully charged STOCK battery will run for 45 minutes if fully charged! So this one would run for "only" 36 minutes fully charged. You probably won't fill up the capacity anyway with rapid charging from the controller or a custom built charger, so it should run just as well as any other battery. I charge my Layman's Dual Cell with a 3v 500mah adapter for a few minutes and it runs longer than my stock controller-charged bit. You should probably charge at a lower current (250mah for a few minutes longer maybe) since the batteries are so small, but even if you manage to burn one out, you have four more batteries left from that original pack, and each pack of 6 cells is only $1.50 anyway. Pics are attached below.

Installation:

First, I have to thank Ovgron for finding the batteries I used. Check out allelectronics.com (http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=160&item=NMH-11&type=store) for the listing of the multipack we'll be using, CAT# NMH-11. If you do order this item and are already paying shipping, you should also check out my Infinite Speed Potentiometer Mod (tm) (http://tinyrc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6047) for a potentiometer that this store also sells, CAT# SVP-20.

First, remove the heat shrink from the batteries, and you're left with a string of six (not seven like the catalog says) tiny button cells, all connected by strips of metal. Snip off the two closest to the end with wire cutters (setting aside the other four for extras). Break them apart in the center (superglued) and fold them in half. You've just finished most of this mod!

Grab a bit battery (preferably stock since the NIMH replacement batteries are actually a little shorter) to use as a measure; bend the center metal piece still connecting the two batteries until the total length is the same as the bit battery. Now test-fit the battery inside your bit (the narrow end goes where the positive "button" end of the stock battery went). The idea is for the metal piece connecting the two tiny cells to serve as a spring to tension-fit the cell in place. You may have to trim any little bits of metal left from the original attachment and use a razor to scrape off excess superglue, but leave the center piece of metal alone. It takes a little fiddling to get it to fit correctly, but I've found that the easiest way to fit it is to put it in place while it is stretched a little wider than necessary, angling the lowest part of the metal connector down and pushing down on it with a small flat screwdriver. Once it is in place, you can take two small screwdrivers and pry the batteries apart, pushing against the terminals as snugly as possible. Test it before you put the PCB back on to make sure it is charging. Shake it around a little and make sure it is still connected. If not, you may have to put a dot of solder on the terminals to hold it in place (but since I promised you wouldn't have to solder, you can wedge a thin piece of metal in there instead). If you can't get it after several tries, take it out and stretch it back to the original dimensions, then try again.

This is the dual cell mod of choice if you want to have room for other mods and stay inside the stock case, like the Infinite Speed Potentiometer Mod (tm) (http://tinyrc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6047) mentioned earlier.

Let me know if you find this post useful or have any questions. Happy modding!

actofgod
01-02-2003, 08:41 PM
various batteries. The pack used is in the lower right, with two cells already snipped off.

actofgod
01-02-2003, 08:42 PM
an exact match

actofgod
01-02-2003, 08:43 PM
a blurry closeup of the metal connector between the two tiny cells.

kwikbb
01-04-2003, 02:03 PM
Wow actofgod, another great post. Looks like it may be another candidate for Bit Science, Great stuff :D.

SPEED
01-04-2003, 04:56 PM
WOW!!! You have some great ideas!! very interested in your other posts about the "adjustable" speed. Keep up the GREAT WORK!!

sessiz10
01-05-2003, 03:07 AM
Okay, 1st this is a great mod, I hate solder never liked it never will. 1 question though. The 150 mah bats are smaller than the stock ZIP bats leaving some room between contacts in the chassis. Here is my question. Would it be possible to stick just 1 of those buttons in between the 150 mah bat and the neg contact on the chassis?
I'm going to order some of those bats anyway to do this mod. Once again excellent mod.

actofgod
01-05-2003, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by sessiz10
Would it be possible to stick just 1 of those buttons in between the 150 mah bat and the neg contact on the chassis?


Unfortunately, no. They are around 5mm thick each while the difference between the two types of cells is barely 1mm.

actofgod
01-06-2003, 12:26 PM
Ok, only a few people appear to be interested in my dual-cell no-solder mod? How about three cells? Anyone else doing a no-solder, no-dremel, all-in-stock-body tri cell sleeper? Didn't think so. :)

This is even easier than the last one, believe it or not. It's almost a perfect fit, except like the last one the PCB is a little tighter when snapping it back on. I got mine back on though.. and this beauty can FLY. It practically goes up on two wheels when you're turning, even in the lower speed. Boost it and bye-bye...

Luckily with the potentiometer mod in place, I just dial the voltage down a little until I can keep all four wheels on the ground, heh. STILL no wheelies though, since it doesn't have all that extra weight to make it unbalanced. You can actually race with this thing, unlike the ones using three 1/3aaa batteries, since the extra weight doesn't make the car flip as easily, and the little weight that's there is centered where the original stock battery was. This will outrun any other three cell 3.6v mod.

Pics to follow.

actofgod
01-06-2003, 12:27 PM
another exact match

actofgod
01-06-2003, 12:28 PM
blurry closeup of installed cells

Namuna
01-06-2003, 01:11 PM
While you're doubling/trippling the voltage, you're also losing as much on the amperage...Those button batteries are actually LESS on the mAH rating than the stock NiCads!

It's all up to debate (good work actofgod), off you go

actofgod
01-06-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Namuna
While you're doubling/trippling the voltage, you're also losing as much on the amperage...Those button batteries are actually LESS on the mAH rating than the stock NiCads!

That's the drawback to using this method, but if I'm understanding the Peak Charg'd thread right, it shouldn't matter much.

Until I read the peak charge thread, I figured that since a 50mah stock battery charges in 45 seconds, a 150mah NIMH should get charged three times. But it turns out that regular charging only fills up a stock battery a tiny bit.

FMZPLAYER1 calculated that a single charge on his z-car charger gave the car 11mah, much less than a stock battery holds. So in theory, a 50mAh NiCd could hold a triple charge just like a 150mAh NIMH. The longer run times after installing a 150mAh battery came from the fact that I charged it 3x and expected it to hold the charge. I had never tried charging the stock battery more than once.

Tinyrc found that a peak charged 50mah stock cell, just 10mah more than one of these, will run for about 45 minutes. If I can find a way to charge this 3-cell pack to its maximum capacity also, I could expect it to run for 4/5 of that, or 36 minutes, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

What I'm working on now is figuring out the easiest way to get the button cells charged to their max capacity of 40mAh each, or at least as close as I can safely get without detection circuitry. I'm already using an adjustable AC adapter @500mA, set to 3.0v for the dual cell and 4.5v for the tri cell. What I need to know is if this is enough voltage for each set of cells for them to get the full 500ma current. Then once I know the current for sure, I can figure out how long I need to charge at that current to get close to the max capacity. I imagine I will need to use a lower charging current to be safe, like 100mA or 300mA.

Any thoughts? I'm learning this as I go -- corrections welcome. :)

Namuna
01-06-2003, 04:13 PM
When you're charging batteries, you SHOULD be sending through a voltage that is EQUAL to the pack (2.4v for dual, 3.6v for triple and so on) going higher than the rated is overkill and could be detrimental.

How much amperage you send through is really up to how confident you are that the batteries can take it. Considering the stock Bit Charger (on the remote) PUMPS out ~2.5A, that 500mA adapter isn't going to hurt anything...Then again, you're using an AC adapter and not a proper DC adapter (unless you're using something to convert) but that's a different story.

...Anyway, for some math: Divide the capacity of the battery by the charge rate of the charger, then increase the amount of time by about 20% to allow for a certain amount of inefficiency (batteries and charging them is not an exact science).

- At 500mA, it would take a little less than 6 minutes to charge the 3.6v/40mAH pack (40mAH/500mA X 20%= hours needed to full charge)


Considering these calculations we can look at how much juice a Bit battery gets from a 45second charge @2500mA (the stock charger).
2500mA = 41.66mA pr/minute = .6944mA pr/second.

.6944mA X 45 seconds = 31.25mAH - 20% inefficiency = ~25mAH (so, a single charge on a Bit Charger is really only providing 1/2 the capacity of the stock 50mAH battery)

Chilledout
01-06-2003, 06:46 PM
namuna please confirm you electronics experties as you clearly think you are right in your previous statement.

But i do believe you have learnt something about electronics since you posted this as in one of your other posts yuo stated that you had been measuring the curent the remote pumps into the battery by shorting the charging terminals with your dvm and then measuring the current.

doing this you were only measuring the curent the transmiter could generate when the terminals were shorted. there is only one way to monitor the charge rate of the transmiter and that is by puting the dvm in series with the charging circuit in the transmitter.

i used this method to determine that rechargeable batterys are more effective at charging than akalines as akalines would startoff about 950mah the dro to about 850mah but when i used rechargeable batterys the charge current started at 1.05Ah and finished at 1ah.

Your calculations however are corect but just have the wrong data.

it should be with rechargeable aa's

1000mah/60 = 16.6ma/60 = 0.277 ma/sec

0.277 x 45 = 12.5mah

this is why people with peak chargers are reporting runtimes of upto 40mins.

i should get my new peak charger tomorow will let everyone know whether i can reciprocate those figures.

bdebde
01-06-2003, 10:23 PM
HEY! I like this dual and triple cell mod. The run time would be pretty decent if peak charging. Although the motor you use and how you drive will determine run times (notice Tiny used 1.0 motor for his test). A faster motor will eat the juice faster. I have a dual 150 mah Zip Zap with clone pcb, NOS motor and I rarely charge it to full capacity or run it dead just because I don't have enough time to run it forever. I use a high end peak charger from my 1/10th scale RC cars to charge (I been watching Peak Char-g'd thread). I also have a couple of booster cars, which seem to eat the juice a little faster too. Even the stock 50 mah battery provides excellent runtime of 20 to 30 minutes depending on motor used. I guess I will try your battery mod in a booster to see how it works with peak charging. I also like the no solder/ no destroy for this mod. I was going to take a pcb from a booster and put it in a Zip Zap because it is easier to fit two 1/3aaa batteries in the chassis, but now I may hold off on destroying a booster car. Although I do like the longer wheelbase on the Zip Zaps, which handle real well at the high speed of dual cells (hmm, may try this mod on a Zip Zap too). Higher charge currents will kill a battery quicker. I been running 300 to 500 ma charge rate, just depends how long you want to wait for the battery to charge.

SPEED
01-07-2003, 03:32 AM
Went to radioshack.com and found these!

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F004%5F009%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=960%2D0485

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F004%5F009%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=960%2D0481

DOn't know if they would fit, but they sure do look like they would.

[EDIT] these aren't Nmih's and cost more :rolleyes:

actofgod
01-07-2003, 09:49 PM
That'd be nice if it worked. Usually though, NiCd's have a lower capacity for the same given size as a NIMH. I don't think these could be 150% the capacity and be the same size, but maybe someone can run by a RS and double check. I'll do it next time I'm there. Thanks for the links!

JaredR420
01-07-2003, 11:51 PM
2 Battery packs on the way. I hope to make a 5-6 cell zip too.
Thanks for the idea.
JAredR420

tarnjit
01-08-2003, 03:43 PM
act of god m8 cool mod! i just had a few quesions.

1) could this be charged from your controller? 3 cell or 2 cell?
2) what about a custom made 4aa battery charger?
3) how long would i need to charge?
4) could u please send me one of your 2cells and 3cell batteries please? id pay u of coarse.

thankyou very much

actofgod
01-08-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by tarnjit
act of god m8 cool mod! i just had a few quesions.

1) could this be charged from your controller? 3 cell or 2 cell?

1) Just like any other dual cell setup, you'll need more voltage than the stock controller supplies. Use any methods that work on a normal dual cell setup, like wiring the controller's batteries straight to the charging posts or building a separate charger using multiple batteries or an AC-to-DC adapter. I'm using the adapter b/c I can then charge at a lower current -- that's safer on those tiny batteries.


2) what about a custom made 4aa battery charger?

2) Yes, that's enough voltage to charge either the dual-cell or tri-cell just fine, but I'd still prefer an adapter setup. The voltage and current stay constant and somewhat predictable with an adapter, unlike a battery-based charger.

3) how long would i need to charge?

3) No clue; I've never used a battery setup to charge dual or tri- cell bits. You'd need to know the current that those batteries put out so you could calculate it. Another reason to go with the adapter. If you're still interested in a battery-based charger, search the forum for others who have made one of these.

4) could u please send me one of your 2cells and 3cell batteries please? id pay u of coarse.

4) If you mean the battery packs, it'd be just as cheap to order from allelectronics.com as from me. $1.50 plus $6 flat rate shipping (get some other things while you're there). It is super-easy to go from a shrink-wrapped pack to usable batteries with just a pair of wire cutters.

SPEED
01-10-2003, 03:12 AM
Well i got done reading a charger adapter set that uses the TX itself instead of a seperate Project box. Basically what he did was he did the adpater mod, but did it to his remote. He got and adpater plug and put it on his TX. When the wall adapter is plugged into the remote the power from the batteries of the TX are cut off then the power from the wall adapter powers the Controller. I was wondering if this set up is able to charge these kinds of batteries??? I'm pretty sure it's possible but i want to make sure.


the credit goes to kameraguy from Micro Rc Center for the great idea.

BCGMan
01-10-2003, 07:35 PM
Hi guys, I just mod my LXX nissan skyline castro with the layman tri cell mod and its awesome. Although it still can't wheelies with a 3.0 motor :(. I wanted to know how long should I charge for all 3 cell to get their full capacity with a standard lone charger I made. I can change voltage from the charger from 1.5v - 12v at 300ma. Any help would be greatly appreciate. Thanks

rlee429
01-11-2003, 01:36 AM
well i tried doing the layman's mod but i can't seem to get the batteries to charge? anyone got any clues how to fix this?

BCGMan
01-11-2003, 02:39 AM
me neither, well i kinda get it to charge. I charge for like 5 min at 3v (300ma), it would only last about 5 min run time with a 3.0 motor. SOme one help us please. thanks

actofgod
01-11-2003, 09:26 AM
For those wondering about the charging voltage and charge time, see Namuna's post on the first page. I'll recap here:

1) Try to charge at the same voltage as the battery pack, but since they don't sell AC-to-DC adapters (that I've seen) at those voltages, go to the next step up. Ex: 2.4v dual cell = 3.0v charger; 3.6v tri cell = 4.5v charger. If you want to charge both types, get an adjustable charger.

2) Each adapter has a different current that it delivers, in mA. To figure out how long (in hours) you need to charge with a given current, divide the capacity of the batteries (40mAh) by the charge rate in mA. (ChilledOut says that rechargeable AA's put out about 1000mA if you're using them for a custom AA charger instead of using an AC-to-DC adapter.) Multiply by 1.2 to account for inefficiencies in the charging process, then multiply by 60 to convert to minutes. Finally, multiply whatever follows the decimal point by 60 to get the seconds.

Ex: using 300mAh charger, 40mAh / 300 = 0.13333
0.13333 * 1.2 = 0.16
0.16 * 60 = 9.6 minutes
0.6 (the part after the decimal in 9.6) * 60 = 36
final answer: 9 minutes, 36 seconds

Ex: using a 600mAh charger, 40mAh / 600 = 0.06667
0.06667 * 1.2 = 0.08
0.08 * 60 = 4.8 minutes
0.8 (the part after the decimal in 4.8) * 60 = 48
final answer: 4 minutes, 48 seconds

3) Once you have figured out how long you need to charge to reach *peak* capacity, keep in mind that that is the theoretically absolute MAX time you could charge. I recommend playing it safe and cutting it off a little before. It will decrease the lifespan of your batteries if you overcharge them. Each time they are overcharged, they lose some of their max capacity. Don't overcharge! Go back and do the calculations above again, and this time don't multiply by 1.2 in the second step. That's a guideline "safe" charge time limit that I use, but you'll have to decide for yourself how close to the limit you want to get.

Why does charging take so long? I did a little research on NIMH battery charging; normal, "overnight" charging is charged at "C/10", or the capacity of the battery in mAh ("C") divided by 10. Rapid, 1-hr charging is done at a charge rate of "C". For a 1500mAh AA battery, you'd charge at 150mAh for overnight charge and 1500mAh for rapid charge. They recommend charging at the high rate only until the battery is about 80% full and then "topping off" at a lower charge rate.

These tiny button batteries are 40mAh, so they'd be slow-charged at 4mA (!) and rapid charged (1-hr) at 40mA. We're super-rapid charging here, well beyond the recommendations. A 500mA charger charges at 12.5 times the recommended maximum charge rate.

Maybe they will handle this high rate, but the higher the rate you use, the harder it is on them. If you're willing to wait longer at a lower charge rate, you might be better off in terms of battery life. On the other hand, these batteries are pretty cheap if you buy several packs at a time when you order. It's up to you to decide what charge rate you will use. I'm going to use 300mA for now.

Your runtimes will vary depending on which motor you use. Tinyrc used a 1.0 motor to get the 45 minute results with a stock battery, and I'm not sure if that was driving around with steering or just running the motor while sitting in its back.

Troubleshooting:

1) Make sure the batteries are oriented correctly. The positive end is clearly marked with a + sign. That narrow end should face where the button tip of the old battery went, towards the side with the red wire. All batteries should face the same direction.

2) Make sure the batteries aren't contacting something on the PCB. If you have snipped the batteries apart and have a little space where the metal is exposed through the shrink wrap, turn it so that the metal faces sideways, away from the PCB. You can also try using clear tape on the bottom side of the PCB as an insulator. This may be your problem if it works with the PCB lifted up but does not work, or works sporadically, with everything put back together.

3) Charge at a voltage higher than or equal to the combined battery pack. If using AA's (not recommended), you'll probably need one more battery than the number of cells in the car, since they lose some voltage over time. I've had the most luck charging at 3.0v for dual cell and 4.5v for tri cell.

4) Test the car while on the charger to make sure it is getting a good connection. If it is not working while on the charger, it may or may not be charging the batteries, or your car may have a loose wire. Check the battery contact points to make sure they are all touching. Revert to an uncharged stock battery and test.

5) That's about all I can think of at the moment. If you're still having trouble, post details about what you're doing and what you've tried and maybe someone can help.

JaredR420
01-11-2003, 12:30 PM
I have done all said and I too am having a problem charging. I can't even get a 10 sec run time. I have a 3v, 500ma ac->dc adapter. Measured output is 3.8v. Will not charge the tri cell mod I have done. Can anyone help?
JaredR420

actofgod
01-11-2003, 01:43 PM
Try a dual cell first.. if it charges that fine but won't charge the tri cell then you need more voltage. I use 3v for dual cell and 4.5v for tri cell. How long are you charging? What motor are you using?

JaredR420
01-11-2003, 03:37 PM
I am using a bitmod 3.5. The car is slower than it ever was and lasts about 10 sec. I will try more voltage.
JaredR420

MadMicroDoc
01-12-2003, 07:37 PM
ive never been too successful with any of the other dual batter mods , looks liek theres some hope now ! i hope?:rolleyes:

MadMicroDoc
01-12-2003, 08:27 PM
Ive been hearin a bunch of what-not about charging times and i have a few questions !
1) Do i have to buy a different charger for this mod ?Cant I use my stock charger

2) how does this dual mod compare to the other dual and even triple battery mods (speed wise)

Thanx for the cool mod act of god ! :D

Nathan
01-12-2003, 08:43 PM
I suggest taking the charging plate off the controller and wiring it to a 3-4 battery holder of your choice. I use 4 AAAs for my ZipZap, works great.

actofgod
01-13-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by MadMicroDoc
1) Do I have to buy a different charger for this mod? Can't I use my stock charger?

The stock controller charger will not charge a dual or tri cell mod. Check out http://www.questformadness.com/ for some guides to making a custom charger. I wired an AC-to-DC adapter straight to an old charging base. There is a lot of information about regular dual cell mods in this forum; all of that applies equally to this mod.

2) How does this dual mod compare to the other dual and even triple battery mods (speed wise)

The voltage is the same; the weight is less. It may be a little faster. The tradeoff for the easy installation is less capacity though. As with the "standard" extra-cell mods, there is a more noticeable improvement going from one cell to two than from two cells to three.

Kaizer-Stryke
01-15-2003, 02:37 AM
wow what a great mod , it seemed easy at first and than u hit me witht he hard part charging it do those batteries come precharged cuz i think it would be easier just to buy new ones after every run lol

actofgod
01-15-2003, 10:25 AM
Actually, mine did come with a little juice in them (kinda unusual.. maybe they did a partial charge to verify the pack was wired correctly?) but it certainly wouldn't be worth buying new ones each time :)

It's really not very hard to make your own charger. Buy an AC-to-DC adapter rated between 300mA and 800mA, depending on how fast you want to charge (safety vs. speed) and get one rated between 3.0v (for two cells) and 4.5v (for three cells). I got a Radioshack Adapta-Plug (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F004%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=273%2D1662) so I could change the voltage. I also got a Hobby Leads (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F004%5F001%5F003%5F000&product%5Fid=273%2D1742) adapter for it and soldered the two free wires directly to a charging base from an old clone charging pad, leaving the adapta-plug end sticking out a few inches. Now I plug the two ends together and charge away. Otherwise, you could just strip the wires on your adapter and wire it that way.

If you don't have a spare charging base from an old controller or something, I've also done it where I left the charging base in the controller and drilled a hole in the case to run the wire through to the base, then snipped the existing charging wires from the controller. You can connect the adapter directly to the controller then disconnect when the car is done charging. You'll have to time it yourself instead of watching the controller LED, of course.

Kaizer-Stryke
01-15-2003, 12:54 PM
that doesnt sound too too bad as soon as i scrounge up 20 bucks ill give it a try and than complain about it when i cant execute lol

MadMicroDoc
01-15-2003, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by actofgod
Actually, mine did come with a little juice in them (kinda unusual.. maybe they did a partial charge to verify the pack was wired correctly?) but it certainly wouldn't be worth buying new ones each time :)

It's really not very hard to make your own charger. Buy an AC-to-DC adapter rated between 300mA and 800mA, depending on how fast you want to charge (safety vs. speed) and get one rated between 3.0v (for two cells) and 4.5v (for three cells). I got a Radioshack Adapta-Plug (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F004%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=273%2D1662) so I could change the voltage. I also got a Hobby Leads (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F004%5F001%5F003%5F000&product%5Fid=273%2D1742) adapter for it and soldered the two free wires directly to a charging base from an old clone charging pad, leaving the adapta-plug end sticking out a few inches. Now I plug the two ends together and charge away. Otherwise, you could just strip the wires on your adapter and wire it that way.

If you don't have a spare charging base from an old controller or something, I've also done it where I left the charging base in the controller and drilled a hole in the case to run the wire through to the base, then snipped the existing charging wires from the controller. You can connect the adapter directly to the controller then disconnect when the car is done charging. You'll have to time it yourself instead of watching the controller LED, of course.


hey do u think you could put some pics of makin that chrger ? Thanx, i already am hyped about this mod, i ordered two packs of those bats and a 2 AA holder ha then i almost sh!t myself when i found out you need a 4 AA holder !! haa well ill think of sumthing
which brings me to another point what the hell was i thinkign ??
haha cool mod actofgod

BabyKiller
01-18-2003, 11:50 AM
im curious can u use all of these batteries and do the same thing http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=160300&item=NMH-12&type=store :confused:

MadMicroDoc
01-18-2003, 01:22 PM
Im not sure about those batts, looks like they might be a little too big :confused: Just finished the layman's tri and dual mods on a couple of my cars, check it out :)

MadMicroDoc
01-18-2003, 01:32 PM
another pic

BabyKiller
01-18-2003, 02:09 PM
:eek: nice but i would like o know if u can use those batteries cause they have better power 4.8v and 180mAh(i think)

BabyKiller
01-18-2003, 06:04 PM
:( dang

met-sb
01-19-2003, 05:04 AM
i hear taht ifu do series then batts wont have more mah
but paralel less volts and more mah
but
rc car batts and cordless phone batts and old cell phone batts
are 3-8 cells and for those they are all in series and the mah adds up and while increasing mah also increasing volts.


how is this done?

BabyKiller
01-19-2003, 02:22 PM
just curious i know it is 40mah but whats the voltage?:confused:

MadMicroDoc
01-19-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by bk2002
After i did this three-cell mod, my forward doesn't work on a couple of motors, it only works on my zz turbo motor. Anyone know the problem???
Hey BK i think i know what ure talking about. After a few runs with my tri i started experiencing the a hesitating and stalling of my car, it would hall @ss and stop all most instantly. it would also looked like it was "swiching gears or sumthing, looked like it kept hitting the turbo ! But its alrite now, maybe the power wire connecting to he pat that puts electricity to the motor is bent out of shape, take a look.:confused: but who knows

MadMicroDoc
01-19-2003, 05:36 PM
Hey ive been wondering ! WHat does BK stand for ??? BKHS perhaps ???

BabyKiller
01-19-2003, 10:50 PM
whast the voltage on this is it higher then a regualar duel cell?

Shanman
01-20-2003, 01:40 AM
Hello there... This message is for Actofgod...

How the heck did you get the laymans Tricell in the space. When I used the All Electronics pack for the 2 cell mod it was fine, but when I tried to get the 3 cells into the original space, I was SOL.

Did you manage to totally clear off the spot weld tabs OR did you put it into something other then a standard Bit Char-g?

My tricell from the original 7.2 Volt 40 mah pack will NOT fit into the space.

Thanks in advance,

Regard, Shanman

BabyKiller
01-20-2003, 09:02 AM
O.o :confused: ive done the math and it shows there are .78v on each battery and if i did my math right this m,od allows 3.12v more then duel cell im i right?

BabyKiller
01-20-2003, 09:02 AM
3.12v, more

MST3KPIMP
01-20-2003, 09:31 AM
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=NMH-10&type=store

Heres a 70mah pack I saw.. would these work? Does anyone have any extra cells or is planning on ordering? I'd just like like to try it out w/out paying full shipping and if I could just buy some cells or a pack off someone I'd really appreciate it.

BabyKiller
01-20-2003, 10:25 AM
there bigger heres a comparason 1.75" leads. 2.65" x 0.47" x 0.23". 2.75" leads. 3.65" x 0.64" x 0.27".

BabyKiller
01-20-2003, 12:46 PM
sorry i thought it was a 7.8 not 7.2 volts are atill more than regular duel cell(2.88v)but only 16mah how bad is that will it even run with that?

actofgod
01-20-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by bk2002

After i did this three-cell mod, my forward doesn't work on a couple of motors, it only works on my zz turbo motor. Anyone know the problem???

Originally posted by MadMicroDoc

Hey BK i think i know what ure talking about. After a few runs with my tri i started experiencing the a hesitating and stalling of my car, it would hall @ss and stop all most instantly. it would also looked like it was "swiching gears or sumthing, looked like it kept hitting the turbo ! But its alrite now, maybe the power wire connecting to he pat that puts electricity to the motor is bent out of shape, take a look. but who knows

I haven't had that happen to me, but try MadMicroDoc's suggestion and two other things: first, switch back to a stock cell and see if you still have the problem. If so, it is something in your wiring and not a problem with the new batteries. Maybe a wire came loose during the battery installation. If the problem only happens when the new batteries are in the car, make sure any exposed metal on the batteries is not touching the PCB. If you look at MadMicroDoc's pictures, you'll see he removed the shrink wrap from the three tiny cells. Since they're just a tad bit bigger than the stock cell, it may be touching something on the PCB. Try putting a small piece of clear plastic tape on the underside of the PCB and see if that solves the problem. The fact that it works with at least one of your motors seems strange... sorry I can't be more help, but I'd need to see it in person.

Originally posted by Shanman

How the heck did you get the laymans Tricell in the space. When I used the All Electronics pack for the 2 cell mod it was fine, but when I tried to get the 3 cells into the original space, I was SOL.

Did you manage to totally clear off the spot weld tabs OR did you put it into something other then a standard Bit Char-g?

My tricell from the original 7.2 Volt 40 mah pack will NOT fit into the space.

It is a tight fit, but MadMicroDoc and I have both posted pics of three batteries installed. Yes, I did remove the spot weld tabs; after cutting the metal tab about halfway between the batteries, I used a pair of pliers to remove the remaining metal. If there is still some of the metal tab stuck to the battery, try using a small screwdriver to pry it up so you can grab it with the pliers. When pulling the tab off, it may leave a small raised bump on the surface of the battery; gently flatten it back with a pair of pliers, but don't use too much pressure or you may damage the battery. Also, you have to trim down the sides where the shrink wrapped was superglued together; you may even want to try removing the shrink wrap entirely like MadMicroDoc did, although I got mine to fit with it still on. If you do remove the shrink wrap, use clear tape (see above) so it doesn't touch the PCB. Keep trying.

Originally posted by Babykiller

whast the voltage on this is it higher then a regualar duel cell?

O.o ive done the math and it shows there are .78v on each battery and if i did my math right this m,od allows 3.12v, more then duel cell im i right?

sorry i thought it was a 7.8 not 7.2 volts are atill more than regular duel cell(2.88v)but only 16mah how bad is that will it even run with that?

I'm not sure what calculations you're doing, but there really isn't much math needed. Each cell is 1.2v and 40mAh; wired in series you add the voltages, or wired in parallel you add the capacity (mAh). We are wiring in series, so for each cell add 1.2v; that means dual cell is 2.4v, and tri cell is 3.6v. There are six batteries in the original pack, which is 1.2 x 6 = 7.2v; that's where they got the 7.2v listed on the web site. The capacity stays the same at 40mAh.

Originally posted by MST3KPIMP

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=NMH-10&type=store

Heres a 70mah pack I saw.. would these work? Does anyone have any extra cells or is planning on ordering? I'd just like like to try it out w/out paying full shipping and if I could just buy some cells or a pack off someone I'd really appreciate it.

I have one of each type of battery pack that allelectronics.com currently sells. None of them will fit in a stock bit's battery compartment except the very smallest ones that come in the 40mAh pack. If you plan on doing more extensive modification then the other packs might interest you; otherwise, stick with the smallest dimensions so it will fit.

JTM
01-20-2003, 06:18 PM
ok, ive got two standard sized 1/3 AAA batts under my pcb (they stick out a TAD). i can still get a body on it, even an s2k. @ any rate. how big are these 70ma button cells compared to the normal 1/3 aaa batts? would i be able to fit some under the pcb like i have my two standard batts? ive hollowed out all details in my chassis batt compartment so its just a empty box, no bumps or anything.

JTM
01-20-2003, 06:19 PM
like this

BabyKiller
01-20-2003, 06:28 PM
:D thanks act of god i just ordered those batteries today to do the mod but i have a question how many batteries did u use to make the cell the same size as the stock 4?

BabyKiller
01-20-2003, 06:29 PM
oh and i thought they were .72v each battery i thought it came with ten?

BabyKiller
01-20-2003, 07:40 PM
whats the point of this mod its the same size battery same voltage but less mah so its just a waste of time and money i was charged $6 dollars shipping and handeling i know the batteries are connected buy that little metal piece but i didnt think u took that as 1 battery i took it as 2 so i thought u would pull the metal think off 2 sets of them and face the positive into the negative on the other battery till it met the connecters thus i though i would get the same voltage as 2stock cells in the size of 1

JTM
01-20-2003, 09:25 PM
baby killer, each batt is the same voltage as one normal size, but its like 1/3 the size of a normal cell, so u can fit more batts in there, thus doubleing the voltage (or possibly tripling)

MadMicroDoc
01-20-2003, 10:31 PM
This mod rocks, but i have an idea , i have seen people w/ stock batts 2 in and one out, think of howmany freakn batts we could fit !! and it wouldnt be NEAR as heavy. any body wanna try it with me ?? I figure 3 fits the size of one stock, i fitted 3 in my clone a little tiight but it works. so 6 on the inside fitting parallel to the wheels and 3 or more on the out side ! HOLY !@#$ w/ each bat kickn 1.2v each thats 19.8 now i think that would blow the !@#$ crap outta sumthijng haha cool concept though, maybe ill try 3 on the inside and 3 on the outside first !! haha damn that thing would be SMOKIN

BabyKiller
01-21-2003, 08:01 PM
thats correct

bdebde
01-21-2003, 08:20 PM
HEY ACTOFGOD, I was just wondering how the tri cell is working in the booster car. I did not want to fry a booster car. Still working ok? Haven't burned it up yet? Thanks.

Shanman
01-21-2003, 10:37 PM
Actofgod....

Thanks for the info and reply. I will do my best to clean off all traces of the spot welded tabs since that seems to be my problem for sure.

Regards, Shanman

Swavey
01-22-2003, 07:08 PM
Alright, so i just read this for the first time... Goit a few questions.
Three of these little batteries will fit where one normal one would fit before??? Thats crazy!! (but wicked) I have noticed that the dual cell on a bit has been very popular, the one where they have one battery inside and one slightly on top and outside of the shell. Would your triple "mini cell" battery mod be better than say that one???

JTM
01-22-2003, 07:22 PM
yes, when they put the batt n the outside (sticking up from rear window) this creates a higher center of gravity, and makes the cars roll easier and do wheelies. i did this on a Bb (had it under the shell near the center of the chassis on top of the pcb) and i couldnt stop that lil bugger from rolling, mind you it made for som egreat fun (for about 2 hours) then it justgot annoying... my new car has two standard size batts under the pcb, and i can fit the s2k shell on if i want (currently useing a gloria)

Swavey
01-22-2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by JTM
my new car has two standard size batts under the pcb, and i can fit the s2k shell on if i want

So what is better, to go with dual standard size batteries under the pcb, or triple mini batteries under the pcb???
i really hope i didnt totally misunderstand something, heh

JTM
01-22-2003, 07:35 PM
well i have two 70ma batts under my pcb (pcb cover doesnt fit on it anymore) but its still just 2.4 volts, if you put the 3 mini batts they are 40ma (shorter runtime) but its 3.6 volts and lighter. but if u have the options, dont put anything like a batt above your pcb, it just sucks

JTM
01-22-2003, 07:36 PM
either way youll need to make a custom charger 2AA for each 1.2 volt cell is the way i work it.

e_lm_70
01-23-2003, 04:29 AM
Hi,

I made already my 3x1.2Vx40mAh time ago on my Booster.
For charge I use a Clone TX with a DC power (I have 300mA,500mA,800mA available).

On my test I never been able to run my booster more then 1m30sec , for this reason I came back to my single 1.2Vx120mAh.

The best motor for 40mAh cell is the Bit 2.2, the other draw too much Amp, and as result the cell drop a lot of Volt, so a more powerfull 3.0 has no advantage !

At full speed the Volt between my 3cell dropped from 3.9V to 2.8V.

Full speed has increased to 13km/h from 11km/h (not a lot !)

I don't have a professional charger, so I don't know if I can get more out of it !

Anybody elase has made test on 3x1.2Vx40mAh ?

e_lm_70

P.S: It look to me that the best is to make a 3x1.2Vx80mAh, using 6 cell, 3 in series with the two group in parallel, as result there will be more juice for the motor and more running time ! ... but need some space on the car !

JTM
01-23-2003, 04:39 AM
oh geez e - i never thought about it but your absolutly right, you could just make two triple batt packs (in series) and wire the two batt packs in paralell.. its such an easy idea.. why the hell didnt i think about it lol :) i wanna try it now...

MST3KPIMP
01-23-2003, 04:59 PM
so what exactly can you expect from this mod? What kind of speed increase and average run times with a 2 or 3 cell?

e_lm_70
01-24-2003, 03:23 AM
What I tested:
3x1.2Vx40mAh (3 cell) - > As previous msg: little bit more fast, much shorter run time ! (Could be better with run time with a professional charger and longer charge time ... does it deserve it?)
3x1.2Vx80mAh (6 cell) : never tried, but could be with very good result ...

On a Clone (little bit bigger inside place) I have forced in a 2.4Vx100mAh single special cell (16x14mm) ... doing some body cut and soldering : result long run time little bit better top speed (on a Clone the powergo in noise instead of speed), huge range.

P.S: As my experience it look like that keeping two or three cell inside a "stand-by" car for long can make far more damage to the cell then with a single cell, since there is no power off switcher !

PP.SS: Got for 25$ here in Austria a ready clone, with turbo and 2.4V ... just little bit bigger then a Bit, with crappy tires, but replaceable with good Bit tires ...

feishiaada
01-26-2003, 02:54 AM
tried 4cells, two two-cells in parallel...
basically, with some creative wiring,
i have three cells under the pcb and one cell on top.
Didn't want to screw up my bit so tried this on a LXX...
result - (for me at least) i saw slightly more runtime and
about the same amount of power as the regular two cell mod.
Thing is, with one cell, i still couldn't properly fit the body
onto the chassis.....
i'm sticking with the two cell mod and 2.2 motor for now.
I didn't see too much more run time with the cells in parallel...
(though i didn't peak charge them)
...
QUESTION though: how does the two button cell mod with
2.2 motor compare in terms of speed and torque with the
upgrade motors? like the r-spec or 3.0 and above?

I'd really like to know if it's worth it doing this two cell mod
or better to just get a faster motor with a regular 1/4AAA size
150mah battery.....

mattsx2005
01-26-2003, 02:19 PM
ok i was wondering if i could use an old tyco r/c battery chargerthe ones that plug into the wall :confused:














:bdrop: b6way b1spd bc12m b27m zztbo

MadMicroDoc
01-26-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by bk2002
I've heard that 5V is the max for the pcb before you burn sumthin up. Maybe if you have a cheap clone you could try it?

hmmmm well what about 4 batteries ? we could probubly fit that into a zip, just go my first one yesterday, and i dont know if it was just me but it seemed that the zz got more porformance out of the tricell than a couple of my clones AND micros >? has anyone else done this on a micro and zz and found different results ? Im gonna race them tommarow

btlmr
01-29-2003, 09:53 AM
I am after some of these cells, but I am in the uk. allelectronics.com don't accept foriegn credits cards or paypal and don't ship to the UK for orders less than $50. Does anyone have spares I can purchase?

Cheers,

binaryterror
01-29-2003, 10:08 AM
I think they got hit by the SQL Slammer worm, because before this weekend (major release of the worm) i could get there fine, but now i get timeout errors and such

:(

neoGTR22
01-29-2003, 03:05 PM
yea i can't get to their site either. guess we'll have to wait some.

btlmr
01-29-2003, 04:40 PM
Well if someone does get on order two extra packs for me please.

I will pay for them plus p+p and maybe extra for a beer. :)

Cheers,

BOme}{_2k5
01-30-2003, 02:15 AM
i was just thinking... can you hook up like 3 of those to make 3.6 volts.. so it has 40 mah still right? and then hook up one more in parrallel? to make the total 80 mah?

btlmr
01-30-2003, 05:18 AM
To have 80mah and 3.6 volts you need 2 sets of 3 in series, linked in parallel

neoGTR22
01-30-2003, 10:13 AM
The www.allelectronics.com (http://www.allelectronics.com) site has been down for 2 days now. Anyone know if there's another source for the same batteries?

sessiz10
01-30-2003, 07:16 PM
Not down anymore.

btlmr
01-31-2003, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by butler
I am after some of these cells, but I am in the uk. allelectronics.com don't accept foriegn credits cards or paypal and don't ship to the UK for orders less than $50. Does anyone have spares I can purchase?

Cheers,


Anyone? Tiny?

Zephyranthes
02-01-2003, 01:11 AM
Can you get batteries like those or similar at Radioshack?

dustn
02-01-2003, 11:52 PM
Ok, this is not to the most recent people posting, or anybody in particular really, but it bugs the hell outta me when people post something like "how much voltage is it" "how do you do it" and crap like that when the answers are at the VERY BEGINNING! I think people just post too soon. You could spare somebody the tooth gritting hastle of answering your unneccesary question by actually reading the thread.

JTM
02-02-2003, 08:28 AM
how much voltage is it, and how do you hook it up?

























































LOL just kidding:)

chelboed
02-03-2003, 02:45 PM
I just did the layman 2 cell conv. on my microsizer. I noticed that even with the added weight, the normal dual cell mod is 15-20% faster and more powerful. I am charging the layman mod cells with 4AA's. Should I use 3AA's for a longer time, or since they're smaller cells, do they just not perform as well?

Also, regarding your potentiometer... I left the +wire to the PCB alone, and ran the potentiometer directly throught the + wire to the motor. This way, your steering is not comprimised. Otherwise, you can't hardly steer when you turn it down.

Thanks for the mods, though. Please let me know about the performance of the layman mod.

ed

chelboed
02-03-2003, 02:59 PM
Oh, by the way... I'm sorry you guys are getting so much charging questions. I charged the layman for about 2 minutes on 4 AA's, and it would not run with the standard dual cell mod. I charged it on 6 AA's until they were pretty darn warm, and it still would not run with the standard dual cell mod.

My + wire to the motor on the potentiometer works fine with forward and reverse. This way, I get optimal performance on my steering.

I just wish I could figure out why the layman is slower than the standard dual cell mod (for me).

ed

L3V3L1
02-03-2003, 04:14 PM
Butler i just ordered a bunch.
email me at L3V3L1@aol.com

bdebde
02-03-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by chelboed
Should I use 3AA's for a longer time, or since they're smaller cells, do they just not perform as well?


I did the mod too. I also noticed they don't perform quite as well as using standard cells. I think the small cells just can't put out the high current rates required by the cars.

chelboed
02-03-2003, 10:34 PM
Do you like the mini's? Would you rather go to the normal size cells? I need your opinion before I cut the back window out of another car. I LOVE the potentiometer!

Have any of you guys ever used a Microsizer? Are they slower than Char-g's. My clone pcb's put out tons more torque and hp than the Hobbico's. How are the Char-g's compared?

chelboed
02-04-2003, 12:36 PM
I read a thread from aus micro from PRABBIT that said that the newer generation Char-g has a bit more torque off-the-line than the older generation.

actofgod
02-04-2003, 03:32 PM
Regarding the output of the button cells:

I mentioned in a previous post that calculating a charge rate depends on the capacity of the battery; i.e. the smaller the battery, the lower the recommended charge rate since it is based on a percentage of the capacity.

This is definitely true for the output current of the cell also; these tiny button cells can't put out as much as the 150mAh NIMH's. To some degree, this is offset by their lighter weight (which is also a benefit in cornering since there is less momentum to overcome), but your results will vary as to which is faster. I've had better results with a cannonball clone motor (slightly larger than stock) than with an official bit motor of roughly the same RPM. Some motors are more efficient with the current they receive than others.

Putting these batteries against 1/3aaa's is unfair; they certainly lose in capacity and probably current too. If you're just comparing the numbers, there would be no reason not to do a traditional dual/tri cell mod instead of this one. However, as you can tell from the name, the point of this mod is not to squeeze out every bit of performance but to make it *easy* to experience the speed benefit of having more voltage. A traditional mod will require some pretty extensive cutting and soldering; this one is pretty much plug-and-play with no chassis or body modifying needed, and can be reversed back to the stock battery very easily. And again, there's the issue of weight; by the time you have three 1/3aaa's in such a small vehicle, it becomes a big issue, affecting acceleration, cornering, and stability (lots of flips).

In my opinion, the strengths outweigh the weaknesses; you'll have to decide for yourself. Happy modding. :)

MadMicroDoc
02-04-2003, 04:07 PM
If dual isnt good enough why not tri cell it ? Its about just as easy,but with more kick . Is a Laymans tri faster than a regular dual cell ?

chelboed
02-04-2003, 10:22 PM
I experimented with tri-cell and quad-cell. I was dissapointed. I varied my charging methods to see if I could get any better results. My conclusion is this. Microsizers piss me off. The one I have has a very doggy PCB. I took the exact same car, and put a clone PCB in it. My results were this- Clone PCB with 2 cells literally smokes the dookie outta my microsizer PCB with the Layman 4-cell modification. I'm not sure if I have an older version, but it definately puts out less voltage.

chelboed
02-04-2003, 10:28 PM
Oh, yeah...

I agree with actofgod. The Layman mod is faster than a single cell, and weighs less. Great for table racing. I have gotten so used to ramping my trucks, that I forgot what single cells were like.

Does anyone know if older microsizer and char-g's are slower than new ones. I would like to dual cell a booster, but I think I would not be satisfied. The booster (from what I hear) is actually a retarder in that the car does not function at full potential until the boost button is pressed. This being the case, I would have a dual cell car with a granny gear (minus the granny power).

Any thoughts?

Different thread?

actofgod
02-05-2003, 03:41 PM
It has been measured and confirmed that Microsizer/ Bit Char-G boards provide more current to the motor than Zip Zap boards, but you may be right about some of the clones putting out even more current than the name brands. If you have the equipment, perhaps you could measure it and see for certain. What type of clone are you comparing it to?

About the booster: the pics in this post are of my Fairlady 350Z which is a booster chassis. You're right.. the boost function doesn't really make the car go faster but only gives it two speeds. With the button pressed, it travels at full 1x speed, and without the button pressed it travels at about 1/2x speed. Some claim that the booster goes faster at full speed than a non-booster car, but if that's the case it seems to be only slightly different.

But look at it this way: if you can double the top speed of your booster car by adding more cells, you would essentially have 2x and 1x speeds instead of 1x and 1/2x. It makes for an all-around car that can hold its own in terms of top speed but can slow down to take some corners.

That's the setup I have right now; between having a few different motors of varying torque and speed, being able to change between 1/2/3 cells in seconds, being able to fine-tune speeds with the potentiometer mod, and having both fast and slow speeds on the booster chassis, I have about all the control and options I need (at least until the proportional throttle/ steering emulator gets finished).

chelboed
02-05-2003, 05:50 PM
Yeah, but I'm dissapointed in the pcb, because my clone pcb with 2 cells runs like a microsizer pcb with 3 cells. I don't want to put 3 cells in my Fairlady that's on order, but I think if I may be dissapointed with the fairlady with just two cells.

Boo Hoo, man...

chelboed
02-06-2003, 12:20 AM
All of you guys with trouble charging the multicell cars, check this out...

I bought a project box from the "shack" and put this 2 way switch in it. I bought a four AA and two AA holder battery pack and wired them to a charging dock. You can switch between 4 and 6 AA's to charge your 2,3,or 4 cell cars.

chelboed
02-06-2003, 12:21 AM
..

neoGTR22
02-06-2003, 01:46 AM
Actofgod's got the right idea. For track racing purposes, the booster bits are the way to go. I used my 350z with an rspec using the stock battery and had a hard time keeping it from spinning out. I swapped out the gear for the red zipzap gears and it was perfect. No spinning out off the line. The non turbo speed could be a lil faster but with turbo, the bit flies. And the nonturbo helps out enormously in the turns to slow down. I just got my batteries in from allelectronics, so tomorrow I'll give that a go if it works for my other bit.

Actofgod... What charger do u use? Is it a peak charger or a custom?

chelboed
02-06-2003, 02:19 AM
I just did the 3 cell layman mod to my Microsizer Toyota dB. I removed 3 normal cells which all fit under the stock body. I'm not too unhappy with the mod. It has less power and runs for a shorter time, but It does have a better center of gravity for turning purposes (and I was able to do a chop job and lower the body a bit). I had to put the blue gears (power) to get any kind of decent acceleration. I noticed that after a short time on a charge, when I turn, it drags the motor down a bit. Actually this is kinda good because it barely slows down in a turn. Just enough to not flip over, anyway. The only bummer is when you begin from a dead stop while turning, it is slower. Not so on a full charge, but it doesn't take long.

GHC
02-10-2003, 09:23 PM
OK. I LOVE this idea. The problemis that have no soldering iron(or seen one), dremel(or seen one), or any wiring experience. The only mods ive done are untying the knot and using foil and tape (to stand side-to-side to my ) to put a maybe 3ft antenna i found in my bathroom. Basically you are dealing with a 100% Grade-A idiot when i comes to this stuff. Can someone PLEASE tell me an easy, cheap way to make a charger?PPPPLLLLEEEAAAASSSEEEE!!!:( :( :( :( :mad: :confused: :( :( :( :(

chelboed
02-10-2003, 10:04 PM
Here...

GHC
02-11-2003, 08:17 PM
Thank you. May i ask, what part of the controller that is and can i get thaat at RS?

GHC
02-11-2003, 09:05 PM
Well just an update, and i want to say i really appreciate you helping me with this becuz its hard to find help on these boards. The update is that i took apart the controller and understand how to take off the dock and saw A wire. are there supposed to be 2?

One more thing, PLEASE tell me this works with zips too!?!

chelboed
02-12-2003, 01:00 AM
There are 2 wires connected to the dock. If you notice, there are 2 metal tabs that stick through the plastic charging dock. One has a +wire, and one has a -wire. You just need to unsolder or cut those 2 (two) TWO wires. The reason I stress this is because I don't want you to cut the wrong wires and fritz out your transmitter.

To answer your question about the Zip Zaps...

Until recently, I hated Zip Zaps. I thought they were much too heavy and low voltage to even think about having any fun modding. WHOA was I mistaken!

I just bought my first Zapper, and I really dig it. I used the Layman 3 cell mod, and I was astounded at how fast these cars could be. My 3 cell Zip Zap is as fast as my 3 cell bit. (same gears and motor). New Respect. Bits are still my favorite, but Zaps are sooooo much easier to control when you juice them up, because of their long wheelbase.

If you are afraid to tackle the charger, let me know and I will try to do a pictoral step-by-step for you so you can build one.

Oh yeah, this will work for the Zip Zaps. Just my opinion though...

Don't take the charging dock out of your Zip Zap controller. It has the latch mechanism that would make it weird to put on the battery pack. If you can get your hands on a bit or clone dock, do it instead. Much easier. If not, let me know and I will try to show you how to easily mod your controller to fit more batteries and use the dock while connected to the controller.

ed...

ph2t
02-12-2003, 07:22 PM
Dudes, found a triple cell already built.

Here's the link to the Jaycar website (http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SB1606&CATID=&keywords=3%2E6V+43mah&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=xxxxxxxxxx&Keyword2=xxxxxxxxxx&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=)

Here's the original discussion at ausmicro.com (http://www.ausmicro.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=226&FORUM_ID=9&CAT_ID=2&Forum_Title=BCG+%2D+Technical&Topic_Title=Battery+doesn%27t+last+long)

ph2t.

Zephyranthes
02-12-2003, 08:56 PM
I just ordered 2 of those batteries from allelectronics. I live in San Diego so hopefully the order will get here quick. I can't wait!

GHC
02-12-2003, 09:10 PM
Well thank u again! The pictoral would relly help but if you can't, i understand.

Go0ty
02-12-2003, 09:55 PM
I'd like to hear more about this Zip Zap charging station deal where you said it might not be a good idea to take off the charging station from the ZZ controller because of the latch? I was planning on taking it off like everyone else has done and I'm not really looking forward to modding my controller to fit more batteries (I can't do anything that requires soldering).

So if you could perhaps elaborate on a method to get the station to charge 3 cells, it'd be appreciated =)

GHC
02-13-2003, 08:46 AM
I Agree. Is there a place i can buy one already made?

chelboed
02-13-2003, 11:29 AM
Gimme a day or two and I'll see what I can come up with.

ed

actofgod
02-13-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by ph2t
Dudes, found a triple cell already built.

Here's the original discussion at ausmicro.com (http://www.ausmicro.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=226&FORUM_ID=9&CAT_ID=2&Forum_Title=BCG+%2D+Technical&Topic_Title=Battery+doesn%27t+last+long)

Nice find; those guys at Ausmicro are behind the times tho.. our button cell mod at TinyRC came out six weeks earlier, heh. Ph2t, I noticed they came out with a variable speed idea (http://www.ausmicro.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=200&FORUM_ID=9&CAT_ID=2&Topic_Title=Mod+idea+%2D+variable+speed&Forum_Title=BCG+%2D+Technical) very similar to yours, but a month later. I don't think they're copying our ideas or anything, but if they would read the TinyRC forums, people wouldn't have to answer the same questions all over again. Of course, we're all still behind those German guys :)

Hmm, the battery pack in this thread costs $1.50 and has 6 cells; the battery pack in their thread costs $12.95 (ouch) and has only 3 cells.

Oh yeah; I made icons for the Layman's mod and potentiomer mod over in the Misc Discussion Area (http://tinyrc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8304); if you have either mod on your car and want an icon for it, go show your support over there.

GHC
02-13-2003, 09:42 PM
aighht however much time ya need. and.. THANK YOU!

chelboed
02-13-2003, 11:14 PM
Okay, here's what I got so far...

You can get the AA battery packs at radio shack, or any electronics store.

If you want to use 6AA's for the 3 cell cars, make sure you use a 6AA pack.

If you use a 4AA and 2AA pack like I did, then make sure you connect the two + to -.(positive to negative)(black to red)

Take one of the black wires on one, and connect it to the red wire on the other. Then use the remaining red and black wire (one from each pack) to wire to the dock.

chelboed
02-13-2003, 11:20 PM
If you cannot solder, no biggie... just twist 'em together. When you connect the wires to the dock, connect the red to red, and black to black.

Then put the car on it and see if you can get it to run with it on there. If it does not, then switch the wires to the dock the other way.

chelboed
02-13-2003, 11:35 PM
Here's a picture of my 3 cell Zip Zap. I use 3 standard cells under the PCB, then turn the PCB upside down. You can even cut holes in the PCB cover and let the bits and pieces poke through. I used to have this body on my stretched out Microsizer.

GHC
02-14-2003, 08:21 PM
WOW! THANK YOU!!!!!! I will try this as soon as i can. Ill try to get the battery holders. I wanted a 3 cell, but if i have to do a 6 AA then ill just do a 2 cell.1 Question, will i have to turn my PCB upside down also?

chelboed
02-15-2003, 12:12 AM
The cool thing about a Zip Zap is that you CAN fit 2 cells in the belly. (or even 3 cells) This allows you to corner w/o flipping. You just peel out around the corner. VERY fun. You must flip the PCB over if you put the extra cells in the belly. It's not hard, just go very slow, watch all the wires, make sure you don't break the tiny teeny weenie steering wires, and be patient. I would highly recommend 3 cells, do NOT do 4. You will burn out forward. I did this and I had to switch the forward and reverse. Now I have a 4 cell 3.8 motor dragster, and a fully functional 3 cell fun-mobile.

GHC
02-15-2003, 10:03 AM
:( so ill have todo this even if i put the button cells where the nimh was?

Pojo
02-15-2003, 06:48 PM
I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there any reason to do this instead of a dual cell mod? Does it increase power, runtime, top end, etc? What are some pros and cons?

GHC
02-15-2003, 07:30 PM
Well pojo, from what i gather, its just as good as a normal dual cell but fits in the PCB VERY good.

MadMicroDoc
02-15-2003, 07:38 PM
one word, Ease. Its so easy to do this mod, no slodering, no wires, no accidents with steering wires! I have layman's dual and tri cell cars on MS and ZZ, the dual cell is more of a track car, the tri is good for drags. It is also hella light

chelboed
02-15-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by GHC
:( so ill have todo this even if i put the button cells where the nimh was?

No, you don't need to flip the PCB if you use the button cells. The downer of the button cells is you have TONS less run time. It's not much good for having fun-runs. It's the coolest for racing, though. You can easily get through a race with the Layman mod. I just hate having to charge my car so often. I use the standard dual cell on my "funrun" cars because of the run time.

But to answer a question from another person (i think), any time you add cells to a car, no matter if they're button cells, or standard cells, you really should build a charger that can handle the extra cells. If you don't, then you can't charge the addtl. cells enough to make much of a difference.

GHC
02-15-2003, 09:52 PM
alright 1 more q an im ready: The charging station was for the laymans dual cell right?

chelboed
02-16-2003, 01:57 AM
The charging stations that I built (if that's what you're referring to) is for any 2 or 3 cell addition to your tiny car. If you have a 3 cell car, use the 6 AA, if you have a 2 cell car, use a 4AA.

GHC
02-16-2003, 10:10 AM
by 'any' you mean laymans or normal, Right? Thsnx

Zephyranthes
02-16-2003, 10:38 AM
I got my batteries today. Tried cahrging them and it got kinda hot. Figured out I had them the wrong way. I have both a 4aa and 2aa charger. How long should I charge it on each?

chelboed
02-16-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by GHC
by 'any' you mean laymans or normal, Right? Thsnx

Yes, button cells need more voltage when you use multiple cells in a car, just like normal cells.

On charging times...

I use 6AA on my 3cell cars. I charge them in the neighborhood of 2 minutes. On my 2 cell cars, i use a 4AA charger. I charge that for around 2 minutes also.

Rule of thumb... as long as you check them once and a while and make sure they're not getting too warm, you should be okay. Just pull the car off the charger and feel the bottom. If it's beginning to get warm, take it off the charger.

Zephyranthes
02-16-2003, 11:09 AM
Does you pcb board fit in with the cover on with the dual cell in it? Mine doesn't.

Zephyranthes
02-16-2003, 01:27 PM
My car only goes really fast for the first 30 seconds or so. Do you think if I did a triple cell, it would work? And could I charge it with a 4aa charger?

chelboed
02-16-2003, 03:05 PM
I have noticed that with the Layman mod, you get great performance for about 30 seconds to a minute. Then you begin to notice it to slow down a bit. Shortly after that, you notice a super annoying lag, or power drain when you turn left or right.

A 3 cell will not run any longer, it will just be quite a bit faster when it does run. If you charge it with a 4AA charger, it will take a long time to get it charged. It is MUCH better for those little button cells to charge them on 4AA's for a longer time, though. If I have the time, I usually put my 3 cell on 4 AA's for 3 minutes and then 6AA's for about 1 minute. (give or take a bit) I never really time this with a clock. Just experiment with it and find what works best for you and your style (and patience).

If you do decide that you are tired of the lack of run time, do the standard dual cell mod. I can run forever on this. The Layman is an absolute MUST for racing, though. Less weight, and enough run time for a race.

ed

GHC
02-17-2003, 08:37 AM
CHELBOED! You have given me an all new hope! I just bought my 4 AA yeaterday and still have to order the batteries, BUT if i can use the 4AA for a triple cell, even if its 3 mins.,I WILL DO IT! 1 question:How do you put the 3rd cell?They come in 2 at a metal connector. Do you have to break one off at the metal connector?

chelboed
02-17-2003, 10:50 AM
If you are talking about adding a 3rd Layman style, then what you need to do is go back to the beginning of this forum and check out the 3 cell mod. You just take ALL of the metal connecting tabs off, and tape the cells together + to -. You need to make sure you get all of the tab of (you may need to file a bit for the spot welds). When you're done, stack them all up and tape them together. Then, use the butt of a screwdriver, or some blunt plastic device, and gently smash them together until they are as close to the size of a standard cell as you can get. Then you just pop them in. I think it's easier than a Layman dual cell mod, myself. WARNING: do not over smash, you may damage the cells.

chelboed
02-17-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by GHC
CHELBOED! You have given me an all new hope! I just bought my 4 AA yeaterday and still have to order the batteries, BUT if i can use the 4AA for a triple cell, even if its 3 mins.,I WILL DO IT! 1 question:How do you put the 3rd cell?They come in 2 at a metal connector. Do you have to break one off at the metal connector?

Oh yeah, if you are JUST going to use 4AA's, you may need longer than 3 minutes. I use the 4AA for 3 min and then a 6AA for a min. Just keep checking them and make sure they're not getting too warm.

ed

Zephyranthes
02-17-2003, 10:53 AM
Weeee! (Only special things get my special rating of weeeee) My 3 cell rocks! Super fst speed only lasts for a while though but it's all cool. PCB board sticks out a lot so I had to tape it down sorta.

BMP Racing
02-19-2003, 08:09 PM
I just ordered another bit. I got the 350Z booster car. I have all the components to do the triple cell mod and the AC to DC stand alone charger. I will be posting pics of everything when it is built.

Brad




b1spd :btm: bc12m b27m b30 bg12 nnrx7y

CRUMB
02-27-2003, 10:24 PM
thats a very good and creative idea, i aughta try it

cisco
03-02-2003, 06:06 PM
Can you get these batteries any where else besides on line? Thanks.

Zephyranthes
03-02-2003, 10:47 PM
I checked 2 of my local hobby shops and 3 radioshacks, and none of them had it. Ended up ordering online.

How many aa batteries should I use to charge a layman tri cell and how long should I charge it? I'm using a 4aa charger and it takes forever.

cisco
03-03-2003, 06:20 PM
Thanks for the information.

JTM
03-05-2003, 11:29 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14951&item=3010670248 <------- alkaline, not rechargeable but.. damn.. 100 of them..

MadMicroDoc
03-08-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Zephyranthes
I checked 2 of my local hobby shops and 3 radioshacks, and none of them had it. Ended up ordering online.

How many aa batteries should I use to charge a layman tri cell and how long should I charge it? I'm using a 4aa charger and it takes forever.

yeah i also running 4 AA i pretty sure ure suppose to use 6 but i ghetto rigged it ! takes a while to charge for me to an the running time is horrible

JTM
03-08-2003, 04:20 PM
2 AA per batt.

ml22
03-09-2003, 05:28 PM
people complain about layman's tri cell mod... but they really shouldn't. Charged CORRECTLY, my car reached a max speed of 7.6 mph. I was completely floored by this time so I did it over and over and over again. and I kept getting .88 or .89 seconds on a 12 foot track. I got a 6 foot moving start too... cuz I was getting top speed not drag time.

SingXtheXSorrow
03-10-2003, 02:57 PM
Well, i was wondering if it is possible to use 2 150 mah batteries with act of gods method, also if not and you do have to use the 40 mah batteries then by charging it 7 times at 11 mah each charge time it should give you 77 mah nearby filling the battery in just over 5 min with the standard charging unit, correct? PLease reply:)

chelboed
03-10-2003, 10:44 PM
I complain about the Layman's tricell, because the run time is crap. I get fantastic performance just like you for about 30 seconds. Then you NOTICE a performance change. Yeah, it's great for a short race, but I don't race as much as I sit around and just have some fun with these things. I totally prefer a std. dual over a layman 3. The best thing for me, though, is a std. 3.

I have experemented with charging as well. I have used low amps, high amps, low voltage, high voltage, short time, long time, and any combo of them all. I have even made a middle battery explode. (that was so cool by the way) For having fun, the Layman is not for me. For racing it's not so bad.

JackD
03-16-2003, 05:38 PM
This is a great mod !! I've done dual and triples on both bits and zz's. The speed increase is awsome, especially for my zz, which I think are total slugs out of the box. My gripe is the run time is way too short. I blew up a button batt using a 4 batt charger to charge my triple. I'm going to try 6 batt charger next to see if that makes a difference.

Spongebob
04-06-2003, 07:05 PM
Hey! I think i've found those batteries in radioshack! it says no for stores, but i think they can order it. the amazing thing is that the mah is 170-280! the only downside is that they are expensive (very). There are 4 different ones, w/ different voltage, mah. Check out the link! (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F004%5F009%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=960%2D0519) This could mean amazing speed + runtimes, if you're willing to pay.

chelboed
04-06-2003, 08:37 PM
WRONG... those are pretty big, dude. I think they're like the size of a nickle or penny. Way too big.

fergus
04-07-2003, 02:40 PM
hey, i know it aint an original idea but i done a layman mod logo that i intend on usin so i thought i mite share it wif u guys :)

Spongebob
04-11-2003, 05:08 PM
This may sound crazy, but is it possible to do a laymans quad-cell? I want to take 4 of those cells, hook them up, and place them somewhere (probably not the battery compartment, too small), and get 4.8v. it would be tough to charge, but just think of the results!

BillyP
04-11-2003, 05:12 PM
Yeah, you can fit a fourth cell in the chasis if you try.

chelboed
04-11-2003, 10:27 PM
I did a Layman's 6cell. I wouldn't recommend it though.:D

Spongebob
04-11-2003, 11:15 PM
Wouldn't that fry the ESC? How did you charge it? I thought the PCB could only handle 6v. In that case, you must have had a melted chassis. lol.

chelboed
04-11-2003, 11:38 PM
What ESC? These don't have an electronic speed control, they are either on or off. It didn't fry it, but it did make the PCB a bit warm. I didn't care for the performance at all. I got better performance out of a 4cell. It's just a bit too much juice me thinks. If you are racing on a real track, it is rediculous to even try to use a dual cell. I use my new MS Pro and still have to slow it down or it will spin out or flip. These new ones are fast with a different motor.

Anyway, for drag racing, 4cell is probably the most you'd wanna go.

xatu
04-11-2003, 11:45 PM
I have been readin over this thread (mostly skimming) and would it be possible to use your normal unrechargeable watch batterys? I tried, it was a quick and messy job, and it didn't work. But I am sure it would.

And, would you be able to recharge an unchargeable battery?

Spongebob
04-12-2003, 12:39 AM
Sorry about that ESC crap. It was kinda late and I was thinkin about my Dynamite Rocket Racer when I wrote that message. Is a Layman quad faster than a tri? is a tri faster than a dual? (when it doesn't have the performance "drop".

xatu
04-12-2003, 12:44 AM
Most people have said that more than 3 or 4 cells makes the car run crappier. 2 cells is enough for me...

You know your car is fast when you have to run to catch up with it :D

chelboed
04-12-2003, 01:37 AM
My own personal experience say's that 3cells is great for Drag's. My motors didn't run any better with 4cells. Some motors do run better with 4 cells though. It just depends on your motor and PCB set-up. Just experiment with it.

JackD
04-13-2003, 07:34 PM
What motors work best in dual/triple/quadruple cells ? I replaced the stock 3.0 in my LXX booster dual batt with a zz red (2.19) motor and the performance improved significantly. Do the lower rpm higher torque motors work better with multi batts ? Or could it be that the the LXX 3.0 motors just suck real bad.

xatu
04-13-2003, 07:36 PM
Use a lower torque motor in a multi cell car. They give great off the line starts, and have awesome power! My 2.2 in my dual cell shen had plenty power enough for me. Soon, I will dual cell a car with a 1.0 motor in it.

chelboed
04-13-2003, 11:55 PM
I'm gonna have to disagree witcha there xatu. I use high torque 2.8-3.0'ish motors in my 3cell cars with high gears. I usually use the highest gears possible. This way, I can still somewhat pull wheelies, but I don't get too much wheelspin off the line. That's what I used in my 1.9 second scale 1/4 mile car.

xatu
04-14-2003, 06:04 PM
Hmm, well, to each is own I say! I would rather use my 2.2 motor dual celled over my 3.0 ish motor dual celled.

chelboed
04-14-2003, 11:26 PM
dat's Koo, yo.

Ya know actually I don't use my torquer 3.0's much anymore on my 3cell car. I have been racing on road courses lately and I need a 1.0 or less, believe it or not.

xatu
04-14-2003, 11:32 PM
A 1.0 single celled? Dam, a single cell 2.2 car makes me cry.... It goes too slow!

deoblehc
04-15-2003, 12:17 AM
Here ya go...I said 3 cell. Three sell. III CELL.

See? Road course is pretty tight. 3cell is rediculous with a fast motor on such a small tight course.

I agree though on the single cell car with a 2.2. SUX.

xatu
04-15-2003, 12:20 AM
Nice course ya got there! It's a pair of glasses :rolleyes:

deoblehc
04-15-2003, 12:46 AM
Ho HO HO haha lol.

I just thought I'd give you a better chance at reading my previous posts a lil better.:D

e_lm_70
04-15-2003, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by chelboed
I'm gonna have to disagree witcha there xatu. I use high torque 2.8-3.0'ish motors in my 3cell cars with high gears. I usually use the highest gears possible. This way, I can still somewhat pull wheelies, but I don't get too much wheelspin off the line. That's what I used in my 1.9 second scale 1/4 mile car.

Mumble Mumble ...

Made some test with the crappy 3x1.2V 40mAh cells !

As result the best motor was the 2.2 (I tested the 1.6,2.2,2.6,3.0).

The reason for this result was quite clear to me.

If you take a multimeter and you mesure the Volt around the 3cells while full power, you can see that this Volt drop a lot.

The reason of Volt drop it is becouse these crappy cells can effort to provide more then 150mA.

As consequence a more efficient motor with higer impendence will provide a better performance.

Very fast motor need lot of Amp and has lower Impedence ...

BTW At best I was able to run up to 45sec with these 3 cells ... to few and to booring to charge with an external device !

Using a 1.2V 200mA with a 3.8 motor I just lose 20% in performance but my car run over 10minutes and no problem using a standard charger !

e_lm_70

P.S: With some soldering skills is possible to fit up to 6 of these micro cells (1.2Vx40mAh) 5 below the PCB and one over. In this case having 3.6Vx80mAh the performance in speed and duration could be acceptable .... but I'm till not bored enough for spend time on try this out !

e_lm_70
04-15-2003, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by e_lm_70

The reason of Volt drop it is becouse these crappy cells can effort to provide more then 150mA.


Sorry:

The reason of Volt drop it is becouse these crappy cells can't effort to provide more then 150mA.

actofgod
04-15-2003, 11:41 AM
It's true that smaller cells provide less current than larger cells. When adding a second button cell, you're increasing the voltage and therefore increasing the ability of the battery's current to overcome resistance and reach the PCB/motor. As you add more cells, you reach a point where virtually all of the current that the tiny cells are able to provide is being used; at that point, adding voltage doesn't have any effect, and you only increase weight (though runtime may be slightly better). Three button cells is about the best performance you can get with this mod. It's also the easiest one to install.

Yes, using a more efficient motor really helps runtime. I use a motor from a cannonball clone, roughly a 2.2-2.6 I believe, and it has nice torque and good power usage. If you are only getting a 45-sec runtime, then you are not fully charging the cells. I regularly get 5-8 minutes of runtime before it starts to slow down, using a ac-dc charger and the formula found earlier in this thread to compute charge time needed. The voltage does drop off quickly as the cells lose charge, but if you charge them fully you'll get a lot more runtime before that happens.

That being said, the runtime will never compare to a fully charged 150mah battery, and you shouldn't expect it to. It is meant to be an easy replacement for the stock battery (50mah), with comparable runtimes. (You may have forgotten, but a stock car using a stock charger runs only a few minutes at a time.) If you want better runtimes for an endurance track, you can always swap out the button cells with a regular batt easily, since there is no soldering required. And a tri-button-cell car will *always* beat out a single cell car in a drag or short track by a wide margin.. just make sure you are getting it charged completely. Slower chargerate= safer, with best "topping off" ability. Faster charger= more likely to blow a battery, less likely to be able to top off the charge without going over or under.

You just have to keep in mind what this mod is for. Don't expect miracles, and you won't be disappointed. :)

BillyP
04-15-2003, 03:39 PM
Is it bad to "overcharge" your batteries? ie. if they are fully charged after 3 minutes but you left it on 4, is there any negative effect on performance?

chelboed
04-15-2003, 05:32 PM
e_lm_70,


While you're mumbling there...

I was talking to Xatu about 3x standard nimh cells. I don't use the Layman's anymore. I hate the run time.

And yes, I actually fit 6x of the Layman's under the PCB, but performance was crap compared to 3x standard nimh cells. And yes, they were fully charged.

I don't understand your post. Do I bore you? Your 'gripping' little piece of literature isn't anything new either.

Spongebob
04-15-2003, 06:37 PM
I thought the PCB could only handle 6 volts.

chelboed
04-15-2003, 09:07 PM
Like I said, it ran terribly. The PCB got warm, but didn't fry. It ran okay, but I think it was a little too much for it.

JackD
04-16-2003, 09:05 AM
Couple of questions.

Is a 4 AA Batt charger sufficient to charge a 3 150 nimh cell BIT ? I'm getting really short run times on my 3 cell BIT and I am not sure why. Should I make a charger with more batts ? RS sells an 8 AA batt holder for a charger, however, would an 8 AA batt charger be too much charge for a 2 or 3 cell batt ?

chelboed
04-16-2003, 11:21 AM
I usually use a 6AA charger. I think 8 would do more damage than good.

JackD
04-16-2003, 11:35 AM
Thanks Chelboed,

I think you're right about the 8 batts. Do you know where can I get a 6 AA batt holder to make a charger ? My local RS doesn't sell them.

The chargers for my EPOCH and DGMASTER 1/43 cars have six batts, but I'd rather make one from scratch than butcher a perfectly good charger.

JD

chelboed
04-16-2003, 12:12 PM
Ya know, what I did was use a 4AA and a 2AA holder and wired them in series just like you wire the car. I put a switch on there so I can run either 4AA's or 6AA's so I can charge my 2cell car or my 3cell car apropriately from the same dock.

JackD
04-16-2003, 12:55 PM
Never thought about wiring holders in series. That's pretty slick. I will give that a try and see what happens. I happen to have a four and a two batt holder in the house. Hopefully I won't burn or blow anymore of my Bits up.

JD

Zephyranthes
04-19-2003, 12:49 PM
do they sell 6 battery holders at Radioshack?

Is this mod really copyrighted lol?

chelboed
04-20-2003, 12:21 AM
I didn't see any on their site.

actofgod
04-22-2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Zephyranthes
Is this mod really copyrighted lol?

No.. I'm just having fun. :p

BTW I still recommend using a AC-DC adapter to charge your Layman or any other multi cell mod. You can get a more reliable prediction of what the charge current will be, since the chargers are rated in mA.

Adding more AA batteries to your charger will not increase the runtime of your car, it will only charge it faster. However, this is really hard on those tiny cells; it'd be better to charge at a lower rate for a longer time. Then you could get closer to "topping off" the cells without charging them too long and blowing them up. It's like approaching a stop sign at 100mph vs 20mph.. the slower you go, the easier it is to stop right on the line without going over. Using 6 or 8 AA's is way too much voltage, IMHO. I have an adjustable 300mA charger, and I set it to 4.5v to charge a tri-cell car and 3.0v to charge a dual-cell car.

Oh, and does anyone have a peak charger and a few of these button cells? I'd love to see how long a tri-cell would run when fully charged.

MadScott
05-14-2003, 08:49 PM
Funny you ask that question actofgod. I'm currently trying to run a triple cell layman. I have a Duratrax Piranha digital peak charger and a stand alone charger of my own making. The peak charger and platform work wonderfully, I am able to achieve 30 minutes runtime with my stock 100mah zz battery. I recently purchased the button cells from allelectronics and put together a triple cell battery wrapped in heat shrink wrap. I removed my stock battery in my zz and replaced it with the button cells.

Here is where the trouble starts. When I place the car on the charging platform to charge, the charger starts the charging process but within a few seconds, the car starts to smoke and the motor starts to run. I believe I've even seen part of the pcb glow. I'm sure the charger and platform both work properly. I have the settings on the charger at 50mah and 3.2v to be conservative. I've looked for loose connections and can't seem to find any. If anyone has any ideas whatsoever, let me know. I really want to find out what a peak charger and the layman's triple cell can do.

Spongebob
05-14-2003, 10:05 PM
maybe you should tone down the voltage and amps a little more. that's wierd!

btlmr
05-15-2003, 04:36 AM
Try charging the battery direct, not in the car.

Buzzbait
05-15-2003, 07:33 AM
I had the same problem, but with a standard internal dual battery Zip Zap. When I charged it, the motor would start running, and the voltage reading on the Piranha would go sky high. Something was shorting out in the car. I took the bateries out, redid my electrical tape dual cell pack, and put them back in. No more problems.

MadScott
05-15-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by butler
Try charging the battery direct, not in the car.


My only worry there is that the batts could possibly explode. I wonder if removing the motor while charging would help?

actofgod
05-15-2003, 05:57 PM
Hmmm, interesting problem! Don't know if I can help any, but here goes.

When you're using a non-standard charger, it's harder to troubleshoot since no one knows what kinds of weird things you've wired up :p

You say that you've used this custom charger on the stock battery -- but have you tried it on the same car with the stock battery after you started having this problem?

If the problem goes away when you go back to the stock battery, it's probably not any loose connections inside the bit, but you should double-check to be sure. A tiny fleck of metal or a hair of solder from a custom connection could be causing a problem when the higher voltage is applied to charge the additional cells that may not appear when charging at normal voltage.

Eliminating that, double check your polarities. I'm sure you have all the batteries facing the same way in the shrink-wrap pack, but you may have reversed the pack during installation. The narrow end is positive. I'd say double check your charger pad polarity, or test with another car, but you've already done that.

If you've shrink wrapped it, you've eliminated one common source of problems -- the button cells making contact with the PCB since they are slightly taller than the stock batt. Make sure your shrink wrapping is intact. If you find any tiny openings use clear tape to insulate it.

The motor running while charging and something glowing on the PCB both seem to indicate that there's too much voltage, either because the charger is putting out too much, or because of some kind of short. If possible, try testing with a different charging setup for the car that's having problems. I use an AC-to-DC adapter, 3.0v or 4.5v, and no more than 500mA absolute max for these tiny cells.

It seems interesting that someone else has had the same problem with that type of peak charger with a different battery setup. Your peak charger may be built for larger cells and may be putting out too much current at that voltage also. The ideal maximum charge rate for these cells is 40mA for one hour, but since no one wants to wait that long I've suggested no more than 500mA for 5 minutes or so. Multi-cell AA packs put out ~1000mA, depending on the types of batteries used. There's no telling what your current the peak charger is trying to put into these things -- it probably starts out charging at a higher rate then drops off towards the end to top off the cell. You say you've set it at 50mAh? Do you really mean you've set the desired capacity to 50mAh, or did you mean that you set the charging current to 50mA? A charging current of 50mA should be fine, but if you're setting some desired capacity in mAh, there's no way to know how fast it's trying to fill up that capacity, and it's probably based on the tolerances of larger cells. I'd need more info on how your particular charger works, since I don't have a peak-charger myself.

Removing the motor would fix the symptoms but not the problem. It's probably better to leave it in, so that you know when something's wrong. Otherwise, your only clue may be a loud pop or a sudden puff of smoke.

I would definitely try charging the batteries outside the car first. If they do explode, chances are they would have done the same thing in the car but would have caused more damage. If they overheat quickly outside of the car, your charger will likely not ever charge the batteries correctly, for whatever reason. If it charges them fine outside the car (not excessively warm, batteries hold charge well) but has problems again when putting it back into the car, at least you will know that it is not a problem between the charger and batteries but is likely a short.

Good luck.. post more when you've checked it out.

MadScott
05-16-2003, 02:37 PM
I greatly appreciate the input actofgod. My stand alone charger is very basic. I used one of the small RS project boxes as the base, 2 2/56 screws as the prongs that the car sits on and very simply connected a set of hobby charging leads to those screws, inside of the project box.

I have actually put the car on the charger with the pcb opened up and laying to the side so I've pretty much eliminated any shorting there. The button cells are placed in series properly, I don't know if you have purchased any recently but the narrow end now comes marked "+".

What seems to make the most sense to me is that there may be an issue of the charger being too much for the batteries' capacity. The 50mah setting that I was describing is the charge input capacity that I would wish to achieve. The charger could vary well be shooting to much through the batteries.

I will try some charging without the batteries in the car and see if that works. Any other thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. If nothing else, my charging platform also hooks up to a travel charger if you will which basically is a 4AA battery holder with hobby leads on it. Perhaps I can charge my triple cell with that. Thanks everyone for all help.

chelboed
05-16-2003, 03:08 PM
I used to charge my button cells with 6-7.5 volts at 800mA. I think your problem lies elsewhere. Mine never spontaneously turned on like a S. King book.:D

actofgod
05-17-2003, 09:15 PM
Good luck MadScott, keep posting your progress.

Lol @ S. King book chelboed :D

What's next.. spinning in circles ala The Exorcist?

MadScott
06-04-2003, 02:39 PM
Just to check back in, I took some time this past weekend and finally got stuff figured out with the peak charger. I ended up putting the tricell in my 27mhz 350z with a 2.8 motor and that thing hauled! Even with my peak charger, I was only able to get about 5 minutes of runtime and about half way through the run, I did notice the diminished turning responsiveness that I've heard reported. I still love it though!

charliebrown
06-29-2003, 08:09 PM
Act Of God, What is the formula for finding out the amount of time you need to charge a battery???

actofgod
06-30-2003, 10:59 AM
charge time (hours) = batt capacity (mAh) / charge current (mA)

- multiply results by 1.2 to account for charging inefficiencies
- multiply by 60 to convert to minutes
- multiply anything after the decimal point by 60 for seconds

Check pg.2 of this post and look for "Charging FAQ" for more info. Good luck!

charliebrown
07-23-2003, 03:04 PM
I just got them. I took the shrink wrap off three cells and installed them, and when I charged....I smelled fried chips for dinner. So now I need a new car. Anyway, nextime, I'll leave the shrink wrap ON! And when I seperated them (superglued) some of the shrink wrap comes off and sticks to another cell. DAMN!!!

actofgod
07-23-2003, 05:11 PM
What kind of charging setup do you have? Check some of the troubleshooting posts about battery orientation and insulation. Perhaps it is just a small detail that is being overlooked. It is okay if some of the shrink wrap comes off; you can even remove all of it if you want to. You just have to make sure that the metal on the battery is not touching the bottom of the PCB when it is put back together. Use some clear tape on the underside of the PCB to insulate it.

Good luck!

charliebrown
07-23-2003, 05:13 PM
I think that was my problem.....the metal on the cells was touching the pcb....next time I won't remove the heat shrink.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D :D :) :) :o :o :eek: :eek:

micromatch
09-19-2003, 09:55 PM
i did this tri cell one on my peugot 206 bensu clone i just bought today and slapped in a zz purple motor gold spring suspension rare earth magnet and this thing speeds and handles good

P.S. i charge it about 10 mins with a4cell charger

Mr.Qla
09-20-2003, 11:21 AM
so im not getting how this wuite works ..... the 2 battery one will it be faster then then the stock battery and anyways wat does tha battery have to do wif speed.....and if i do the 3 battery one will ma rc not work?????????????and how to do the 3 battery one cuz i dun think its posted on how to do it!!!!!

micromatch
10-07-2003, 01:14 AM
cut out thre batterys (make sre you get all the metal connector off that you can and then put 3 together andwrao the wholething in electrical tape except he 2 connectons at each endand theninstall the battery but remember that the small side off the batt is the + side and also remember that the posotie side goesn the passenger side of the car (U.S. passenger side)

charliebrown
01-27-2004, 04:10 PM
actofgod, I just did a Layman's Tricell on my ZipZap, and I must say there is a noticeable increase in performance. I'm using this adapter (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F004%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=273%2D1662) to charge the ZipZap. I cut off the plug that the end of the wires went into, and I spliced the wires, stripped them, and soldered them to the correct positions, as flatlander_14's tutorial said to. Earlier, when I had the first ZipZap that the Tricell worked in, I charged it for 9 minutes or so, because I thought that the adapter would PUMP OUT 300 ma. I did this with my new ZipZap, but the runtime is incredibly small. I decided to leave it on the charger more, and I noticed the runtime get a little longer...but only by 1% or something.

Then I remembered that it was regulated, and it said "up to 300ma" meaning that if necessary, it would pump out 300 ma, not constantly feed 300 ma no matter what. So, I decided that perhaps it wasn't the adapter that was pushing out 300ma, it was the batteries that were sucking 40 ma from it. I decided to leave it on the charger for 40 minutes....and it worked...well a little. After taking it off the charger for 40 minutes, I felt the bottom, and it was nice and warm (like a baby's butt :D), so I figured it must be peak charged.

I then tested it with the NX motor and red gears. It was fine, but the runtime was short and it had almost no torque. So I switched to the green gears....more torque and even some higher speed.....but I only had around 3 minutes of runtime before it crapped out.

I'm thinking that it's not the batteries that pull the current, but remember how in ph2t's DIP switch mod, don't turn it off and the battery power leaks....or should I say.....gets sucked into the car? Maybe when the car isn't being used, it's the receivers or crystals (whatever) that are looking for a signal, waiting to receive them, and that takes some power.

Look at it like this: a guard officer will wait out there to stop something from going on, he won't be inside and SPRING into action as soon as someone comes.

Same with the car: It won't magically turn on as soon as the signal is being sent, rather the pcb is using up a little power and looking for a signal.

So, I'm guessing that since the adapter is regulated, the PCB is pulling the power from the adapter, and some of it is trickling into the battery, and that's how it's not acheiving it's full potential.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the battery is even reaching a QUARTER of it's full capability when charging, due to the PCB taking power and not the battery.

That's why, as mentioned earlier, try charging the battery direct and not in the car.

Chuckster...

martdaman
02-01-2004, 09:47 AM
that is great but this has got so big i just want to know how long do these last ???

Norm
02-16-2004, 04:30 AM
Am I doing something wrong.

I'm trying out both the dual and the tri cell, and I'm having problems getting much of a run time. I'm only running 2-3 minutes run time out of it with a 2.2 motor. It seemed like It was lasting longer at first, but I wasn't timing the run-time.

I'm running a 4.5 volt DC adaptor, 600mAh, and running through the calculations, this should take about 4 minutes to charge fully. Am I over or undercharging?

How can I extend the runtime?